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The American Iron Front Collaboration Discord
Other / what-we-stand-for
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TheAnonymousDew 7/10/2022 2:16 PM
Okay, so I'll post the AIF creed again as a guideline: I am an member of the American Iron Front. I am a champion of Democracy for all. I am a protector of America's highest ideals. Life, Liberty, and Justice for All. Whenever our rights are trampled upon by authoritarians. I will oppose them. While I do not seek violence, I will defend those who cannot defend themselves if I must I remember the Americans who died fighting fascism and authoritarianism abroad and at home. I will make sure their sacrifices were never in vain and are never forgotten. I am a true American Patriot I am a member of the American Iron Front and I will not fail. (edited)
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Dr_Diskette pinned a message to this channel. 7/10/2022 2:20 PM
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Skullmaggot 3/24/2023 1:05 AM
Are people able to post on here?
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/24/2023 1:06 AM
Ooh, yep!
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Skullmaggot 3/24/2023 1:06 AM
Thanks 👍
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/24/2023 1:07 AM
Although we embrace the visages of America, I really want to ensure we don't fall into the trap of American exceptionalism and nationalist rhetoric. The patriotic aspect of what we do is great for the moderates, but it's offputting for the more extremist anti-authoritarians who would still be great uses for us.
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1:07 AM
Hell, I left at first because the very American aspect of everything icked me, but I chose to come back and check it out. That's probably happened to other people who'd be equally as active as I am.
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We already network with other groups. I think the more extreme people who are put off by the US flag and patriotic symbolism should join these other groups that we are allied with. Perhaps we could make a more formal group, like a "congress" or conference open to all anti-authoritarian organizations, of which AIF would be a member (even though we are more of a movement with different smaller groups than a proper centralized organization)
10:50 PM
And we can have representatives in similar organizations that already exist
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Also, there are hundreds or even thousands of more extreme organizations. Hundreds or thousands of communist, socialist and anarchist organizations, and groups identifying themselves with "antifa" (using the "antifa" name and logo, the red-and-black flags, black outfits, etc for example). You have many options. But AIF is the only organization or movement I know of that is simultaneously explicitly anti-authoritarian and explicitly patriotic. We are probably the only option for a lot of people turned off by the alternatives I mentioned. Perhaps if we were to make some sort of more specific manifesto or mission statement or membership guidelines or something like that, we could include very specific points against American exceptionalism, effectively preventing it from spreading in the organization, if it somehow ever started to take root here
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11:01 PM
Something specific and clear enough
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joe hill’s revenge 3/24/2023 11:01 PM
I think the first step is to organize ourselves into a democratic organization
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I was thinking about that earlier, at least centralization
11:08 PM
I feel like being a decentralized movement has its advantages and fits with the overall goals of anti-authoritarianism and big-tent cooperation
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11:09 PM
but there's plenty of advantages to being more centralized and organized as well (edited)
11:11 PM
I thought maybe we could leave it up to individual chapters or local groups to organize in whichever way they want, and hopefully someone would take the initiative to try and make a very active and tight-knit chapter where members do plenty of activities together and so on in a certain fashion and then see how it works out
11:12 PM
Idk though. I think about all these things, but I hardly do anything. My schedule is a pain in the ass and that prevents me from doing much, and it's probably similar with other people too
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
Although we embrace the visages of America, I really want to ensure we don't fall into the trap of American exceptionalism and nationalist rhetoric. The patriotic aspect of what we do is great for the moderates, but it's offputting for the more extremist anti-authoritarians who would still be great uses for us.
I concur. The kind of 'patriotism' we should exhibit is like that of MLK or Frederick Douglass. We don't believe in American exceptionalism, but we want to see America made into a better place. "He is a lover of his country, who rebukes and does not excuse its sins."
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LessthanLoneWolf 3/29/2023 12:41 AM
I didn’t know we had a creed; I can do ALOT with that from the propaganda standpoint.
12:42 AM
Would it be good to establish a set “core beliefs” for the organization? Give freedom to expand on those to suit the individual chapter, but have unifying ideas to tie the different chapters together?
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Skullmaggot 3/29/2023 8:25 PM
We’ve been having trouble with nailing a common unifying and guiding ideology since we’re big tent, but a679591 and I had come up with the question “What kind of world do you want?” and the answer “I want a world where people aren’t afraid to be themselves.”
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koala_kabob 3/29/2023 9:55 PM
This quote from the 1950s (when WW2 was very recent) is like aspirational patriotism. I think leftish folks prefer this flavor compared to American exceptionalism. "The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war." Sydney J. Harris
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
Although we embrace the visages of America, I really want to ensure we don't fall into the trap of American exceptionalism and nationalist rhetoric. The patriotic aspect of what we do is great for the moderates, but it's offputting for the more extremist anti-authoritarians who would still be great uses for us.
DevilTheAutopoet 3/30/2023 5:00 PM
I might have a suggestion for this. Often people need to feel like they're a part of something, not just in the moment but in history. We can ground our struggle in the radical history of liberation struggles and rebellion in the US. America has a long and storied history of people working in solidarity to fight for their liberty. A history that's unique to American conditions and yet reflective of ideals that transcends nationality. We can follow in the footsteps of Howard Zinn but make it a bit different. Craft something like an "Outlaw's History" or "Rebel's History" of the United States. Talk about often overlooked figures in American history like Crispus Attucks, Daniel Shays, Nat Turner, José María Jesús Carvajal, and John Brown, as well as groups like the Jayhawkers, the IWW, the AFL (before the CIO infiltration), the Black Panthers, the Yippies, SDS, MOVE and others. Part of the reason that patriotism and pride in being American is so alienating to many radicals is that they look at American history and they mainly see the bad. Because the fascists refuse to be critical, the burden of critique of our country's history falls to us. But then that means that we don't have as much opportunity to see, talk about, and connect to the long history in this country of radical action taken by everyday people in the name of civil rights and liberties. Which is unfortunate because if anything, that's the real history of the US, not the actions of the political elite but those of the people.
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DevilTheAutopoet 3/30/2023 5:12 PM
Sorry for the text wall. I have a tendency to do that.
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don't apologize
6:58 PM
It's very good
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/30/2023 7:05 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, yeah.
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This is kick ass. On a personal level I'd maybe revise #8. I agree with trying to temper the Ameri-centrism just slightly and as much as it has a genuine meaning the phrase "true American Patriot" I could see turning away otherwise sympathetic people. Overall I like where this is at though. (edited)
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DevilTheAutopoet
I might have a suggestion for this. Often people need to feel like they're a part of something, not just in the moment but in history. We can ground our struggle in the radical history of liberation struggles and rebellion in the US. America has a long and storied history of people working in solidarity to fight for their liberty. A history that's unique to American conditions and yet reflective of ideals that transcends nationality. We can follow in the footsteps of Howard Zinn but make it a bit different. Craft something like an "Outlaw's History" or "Rebel's History" of the United States. Talk about often overlooked figures in American history like Crispus Attucks, Daniel Shays, Nat Turner, José María Jesús Carvajal, and John Brown, as well as groups like the Jayhawkers, the IWW, the AFL (before the CIO infiltration), the Black Panthers, the Yippies, SDS, MOVE and others. Part of the reason that patriotism and pride in being American is so alienating to many radicals is that they look at American history and they mainly see the bad. Because the fascists refuse to be critical, the burden of critique of our country's history falls to us. But then that means that we don't have as much opportunity to see, talk about, and connect to the long history in this country of radical action taken by everyday people in the name of civil rights and liberties. Which is unfortunate because if anything, that's the real history of the US, not the actions of the political elite but those of the people.
I like this take a lot. And from a more moderate stand point even a lot of the political elites did good, even with all the very real bad they did. The entire founding of America was against a tyrannical king and for fair representation (yes for white males only but it was a start). Then fast forward to the Civil War Union, then the Allies fighting against the Nazis, JFK, etc. obviously none of these people were perfect but they did a lot of good
9:11 AM
And they modern right is trying to reverse all the progress that had made made in the past 250 years
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knuckles
Also, there are hundreds or even thousands of more extreme organizations. Hundreds or thousands of communist, socialist and anarchist organizations, and groups identifying themselves with "antifa" (using the "antifa" name and logo, the red-and-black flags, black outfits, etc for example). You have many options. But AIF is the only organization or movement I know of that is simultaneously explicitly anti-authoritarian and explicitly patriotic. We are probably the only option for a lot of people turned off by the alternatives I mentioned. Perhaps if we were to make some sort of more specific manifesto or mission statement or membership guidelines or something like that, we could include very specific points against American exceptionalism, effectively preventing it from spreading in the organization, if it somehow ever started to take root here
This is one of the reasons I love it here. I am moderate/libertarian and the extreme parts of the antifa movement have turned me off to being politically active in the movement. This is the only organization I found though that embraces patriotism. Not to say the more extreme parts are not welcome here, we all need to fight against facism, but it’s important to remember that the AIF is unique in that sense and give a place for a lot more people like me to be involved which strengthens our numbers (edited)
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grAvity
This is one of the reasons I love it here. I am moderate/libertarian and the extreme parts of the antifa movement have turned me off to being politically active in the movement. This is the only organization I found though that embraces patriotism. Not to say the more extreme parts are not welcome here, we all need to fight against facism, but it’s important to remember that the AIF is unique in that sense and give a place for a lot more people like me to be involved which strengthens our numbers (edited)
AvoidOblivion 4/9/2023 9:30 AM
Part of my goal in this organization is to help foster an environment where anyone interested in defeating extremism can feel welcome. We are all here to help this country survive and thrive, though our ultimate political and economic goals will be different. The differences in views and beliefs does cause strife, but it introduced new opinions and methods we can use to accomplish our goals. Just as it is in the real world, these differences between us must be celebrated. For all of us here who are American, we love this country and want to see it become a better place; for those of us who live outside the US, they are always welcome and are always free to offer input. We're all in this together.
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AvoidOblivion
Part of my goal in this organization is to help foster an environment where anyone interested in defeating extremism can feel welcome. We are all here to help this country survive and thrive, though our ultimate political and economic goals will be different. The differences in views and beliefs does cause strife, but it introduced new opinions and methods we can use to accomplish our goals. Just as it is in the real world, these differences between us must be celebrated. For all of us here who are American, we love this country and want to see it become a better place; for those of us who live outside the US, they are always welcome and are always free to offer input. We're all in this together.
Eazy8 Antifa Viking 4/9/2023 11:40 AM
One advantage I think of having different views is that it forces us to explain our beliefs to other people, so we can be better prepared to discuss them with outside people, and to defend our beliefs in a safe in environment, since not everyone will share them, and it reenforces our ability to build consensus
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joe hill’s revenge 4/9/2023 12:46 PM
What qualifies someone as a bad socialist, r these guys bad socialists: https://www.redlabor.org (edited)
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Having pics of Lenin on their site is a major warning sign
12:49 PM
but you'll have to read their program and see what they specifically call for
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knuckles
Having pics of Lenin on their site is a major warning sign
joe hill’s revenge 4/9/2023 1:14 PM
They participated in a call I was on yesterday for my org
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knuckles
Having pics of Lenin on their site is a major warning sign
joe hill’s revenge 4/9/2023 1:15 PM
did u see all the stuff I posted in the NJ channel?
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joe hill’s revenge
What qualifies someone as a bad socialist, r these guys bad socialists: https://www.redlabor.org (edited)
floppunism [BOI, ID] 4/9/2023 2:43 PM
The country needs what they’re doing so I think it’s tolerable
2:43 PM
I met with some of them last month
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
The country needs what they’re doing so I think it’s tolerable
joe hill’s revenge 4/9/2023 3:53 PM
Are they good with people?
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 4/9/2023 4:00 PM
idk i barely met them
4:00 PM
the guy i met was charismatic af though (edited)
4:00 PM
but that's one guy
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joe hill’s revenge
did u see all the stuff I posted in the NJ channel?
Yeah
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knuckles
Yeah
joe hill’s revenge 4/9/2023 5:15 PM
What do u think?
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Useful
5:22 PM
The links u sent
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I don’t know if it’s growing up gutter in drug-war landscapes, but when I read Howard Zinn 5 years into my public library habit after highschool I saw relief in it of examples of such under-reported rebels DevilTheAutoPilot mentions -rebels very much american. International reality courage above nationalism, always. Switzerland sees it and does it. At any rate, it’s good to get to a level of self-secure thinking to be able to read and analyze any book. For some example of gov organization being wholeheartedly comfortable, and importantly, instituting an expression of a stance rejecting typical nationalism as it is in the way of the interdependent federalism that happens, I have liked so far “Target Switzerland”, by the nra lawyer Stephen Halbrook. I continue to love the nra less after reading it, having my own analysis of rightwing nationalism that the nra invests in now. I’d like their historically observant lawyer to see what anti anti-leftism he’s actually written appreciation for in his own book. When capitulation to rightwing nationalism got ridiculous, of course the extremely germanic country at the border, switzerland, had so much connection and ties to it. They understood a far gone rot coming and organized adaptations to counter it early, after the 20s. As well as investing in civilian arms training, they instituted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_national_defence (edited)
The Spiritual national defence (German: Geistige Landesverteidigung; French: Défense [nationale] spirituelle) was a political-cultural movement in Switzerland which was active from circa 1932 into the 1960s. It was supported by the Swiss authorities, certain institutions, scholars, the press and intellectuals. Its aim was the strengthening of va...
12:52 PM
Me and mine -nationalism is not what we’re doing. There’s a lot of cultural good in turning down the nationalism dial over all and being explicit about it.
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@vitaminWee Pretty accurate. Most AIF people, myself included, tend to think of the idealized goals of the USA and how short we've fallen in reaching them. We recognize the nations failures and want to push towards those ideals: meaningful justice and equity, an actually free society, providing for those in need. (edited)
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this 7
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Skullmaggot 8/23/2023 3:01 AM
After being exposed to some questions from the subreddit community, I’m back to thinking about building a unifying message for our organization. We could do with something that’ll energize people beyond an opposing antifascist message. We still need a unifying goal. Historically, people have already fought for liberty, antifascism, good-paying jobs, and food on the table, so it feels like we’re rehashing the same fight that should have already been resolved. We might instead need something that represents growth beyond what has already been fought for before. How do we want to grow? We can fight for a world where people aren’t afraid to be themselves or a world where we can celebrate everyone’s differences, but we can also brainstorm the ideal destination after that. I’m of the mind that as society pluralizes and people obtain more control over their lives, they explore who they are and ask questions about their place in the universe. People want the freedom to explore themselves and cherish that they aren’t alone in that exploration. I think people may want to not only have a community but to actively evolve the society they’re in. Pondering for a while I’ve got a weird idea, a potential unifying goal for our organization and even for society at large: People may want to deconstruct society, experiment with society, and create society. Maybe our constituent groups desire to explore new roles in a societal space. I want to at least pass the idea by people to gauge their reactions. Could this be a unifying feature of a pluralistic democratic society? Are people fighting for this? What do the people here think? Is this too high-minded or impractical? What exactly is society’s future?
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Skullmaggot 8/24/2023 3:11 AM
Actually, no, that may not be it. I think I understand now. Fascists rage-farm, and we should instead do the opposite and energize ourselves through a positive emotion feedback cycle. There’s not so much unity or drawing people into a movement as taking advantage of a momentary focus. People create bonds through a shared emotional experience. We can promote a context. Focus on something antifascist (or at least active) and good-feeling. An easy thing may be to share yourself and share what you like.
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Skullmaggot 8/24/2023 3:23 AM
For example, I was enraptured today by the fact that you can divide 1 by any number that contains factors other than 2 or 5 in a base 10 system and you’ll get a repeating decimal. 1 divided by 7 is 0.142857… repeating, and 142857 times 7 is 999999, which is a slice of 0.9… repeating, which equals 1. Every number (that contains factors as something other than 2 or 5 in base 10) has the property that when multiplied by a specific number equals 9, 99, 999, 9999, 99999, 999999, etc. (This works for every base as well.) I just thought that was magical and shows a deeper structure within numbers. My example may not be everyone’s cup of tea but it shares something personally valuable, and an energizing cycle can be built on that as you get to know each other. This was the type of positive cycle that popped into mind, but there may be other kinds. (edited)
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Skullmaggot
Actually, no, that may not be it. I think I understand now. Fascists rage-farm, and we should instead do the opposite and energize ourselves through a positive emotion feedback cycle. There’s not so much unity or drawing people into a movement as taking advantage of a momentary focus. People create bonds through a shared emotional experience. We can promote a context. Focus on something antifascist (or at least active) and good-feeling. An easy thing may be to share yourself and share what you like.
str8 up demon 8/26/2023 10:02 AM
I have always wanted to try and do something similar to norways labor youth group teach people the history of americas labor movement and old socialist movements and at some point help them win local elections
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str8 up demon
I have always wanted to try and do something similar to norways labor youth group teach people the history of americas labor movement and old socialist movements and at some point help them win local elections
Skullmaggot 8/27/2023 12:11 AM
Okay, so for those that you speak with about it, make sure to get what they are excited about as well. That communal engagement might be able to be woven together. Might be able to propagate a project forward based on that. For example, what specifics do you want to cover, and do you have materials for such? I might meet that engagement with what I'm excited about, which is studying and applying theory. What's the practical throughline between the history of the American labor movement and winning local elections?
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str8 up demon 8/27/2023 1:14 AM
aight cool thanks ill get to work with researching
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