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The American Iron Front Collaboration Discord
CALL TO ACTION / psyops
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 3:40 AM
Hi @quarantino @austinwiltshire ! A new psyops channel has been born! Do you have ideas for psychological warfare and the reclamation of symbols? How do we get people to reclaim patriotic symbols in the name of democracy?
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3:41 AM
Psychological warfare (PSYWAR), or the basic aspects of modern psychological operations (PsyOp), have been known by many other names or terms, including Military Information Support Operations (MISO), Psy Ops, political warfare, "Hearts and Minds", and propaganda. The term is used "to denote any action which is practiced mainly by psychological ...
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quarantino 7/6/2022 9:25 AM
Not my major, unfortunately. I think that the biggest thing for reclaiming symbols is to start with the "positive" historical ones, however. No reason to start with pepe, for example, because the only people who care what it means is the alt right.
9:27 AM
I think symbolic denial is important too though, for something like Hawaiian shirts. Most Americans are not embedded in online political circles and have positive connotations with them, so wearing one at a protest (as a leftist) will deny alt right groups from having a uniform that conceals their true racism.
9:28 AM
Of course, this needs to be organized appropriately so people don't miscontrue someone as a part of the alt right.
9:30 AM
I really like the posters linked on the AIF subreddit. When I get some time on my hands, I hope to slap some across my Alma mater
9:33 AM
I think messaging really matters too, specifically who that messaging is directed towards. It bothers me when I see libs on Twitter say things like "banning abortion only leads to unsafe abortions" like that's going to convince an anti-choicer. Better to say "it's not about abortion, they want you dead" to motivate someone who might've stayed on the sidelines.
9:37 AM
I have other thoughts on abortion messaging but I think that's better for a different conversation.
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 10:57 AM
Let me think about this
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quarantino
I think messaging really matters too, specifically who that messaging is directed towards. It bothers me when I see libs on Twitter say things like "banning abortion only leads to unsafe abortions" like that's going to convince an anti-choicer. Better to say "it's not about abortion, they want you dead" to motivate someone who might've stayed on the sidelines.
WindandGales 7/6/2022 10:58 AM
Lot of good stuff here. I also am a strong advocate of taking away their symbols, specifically the flag. Right now there is such trepidation on outwardly waving the flag cause you don't want to be associated with them. However a really really great tactic would be to completely take it away from them, having people and institutions they hate the most brandish the flag so obnoxiously that these Fascists don't want to wear it and be associated with it. Its a great way to out more of these people. Force them to make new things (which I realize they already have) and 'other' them into submission. When they take ownership of the flag it makes them appear like their ideologies are the majority, which just isn't true. So the idea being to create campaigns that make them feel small.
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NordicThor_ 7/6/2022 11:08 AM
Halo voice Capture the flag
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:24 AM
Okay so my thoughts so far This is basically a rebranding mission. That's hard. So recognizing this won't be easy is step 1. I'm not a branding expert (more general management, though I worked in advertising). So take this with a grain of salt. I'm reading a great book called "Influence" right now about what psychological forces cause people to affect other people. Two forces that come to mind for this question are "association and conditioning" and "social proof". The more times I see a symbol associated with a thing, the more I think of that thing when I see the symbol. That's association and conditioning. If I see a lot of people doing a thing or having a belief, I'm more inclined to believe it (especially if those people are similar to me, and I'm uncertain). Applying those principles, you could go two different paths. You can actually go both simultaneously.
11:28 AM
First, you can just try and directly reclaim something like the flag. The issue here is the brand damage among other anti fascists. So you've got to associate that symbol with something anti fascist. Maybe a flag with messaging of "fuck fascism" or something. The two need to be together. For social proof, this would work best if, at a protest, there were two or three folks with the same flags and messaging. In terms of pamphlets, just spreading them would help with social proof. This will take time. People need five exposures to a symbol before they even become aware of it (as a rule of thumb) and more before they start to really make positive associations. To ensure similarity, folks using the flag need to look like either punk liberals or black bloc antifascists. Don't try and reclaim more than one symbol at a time. If you show up with a flag and a Hawaiian shirt, etc, you're going to be fighting uphill and possibly doing damage.
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:39 AM
The other path is to build the brand of iron front. THEN associate it with the American flag. Do not do this at the same time. Not enough people know what the three arrows mean or iron front. It definitely comes across as fascist because so many fash groups cloak themselves in the American flag. So, more iron front symbols. Alone, with anti fascist messaging. Something easy to digest what side we're on, like fuck fascism or fuck racism. Again, use that at protests or on pamphlets or online ads. In about a year, maybe consider adding some American imagery like red white and blue, only in areas you've had time to really get folks exposed.
11:42 AM
Two other thoughts, not that many people know what the three arrows mean. One way around that is to put messaging on the symbol itself. So anti authoritarian, anti fascist, anti communist, something like that, written along side the arrows. This can help when the symbol is big enough like protest signs. The other thing is just because we're small and self organized doesn't mean we can't do market research. Our graphics designers could generate a few different designs based on certain requirements (like, okay this is early in the introduction of iron front so the design needs to explicitly say anti fascist etc...) People who are going to distribute or bring the symbols to protests can ask their friends and family what they think of the designs. What feelings are evoked? That can be used as feedback back to the graphic designers. As always, if you can get more than one person at a protest with the same symbols the better (for social proof).
11:43 AM
Same symbols across Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc... More social proof (and association). Of course, paid advertising can open up even more but can seem expensive.
11:44 AM
We did paid advertising to counter Russian propaganda. We probably got 500k "impressions" or eyeballs for about $1k, which is pretty efficient compared to a sign on a telephone pole
11:49 AM
If people on the ground are using iron front symbols at protests take pictures and share. This helps with social proof. Also uses the same effort (make a sign, go protest) to get multiple benefits. Obviously be careful about opsec. But we've all seen the Dallas community defense Pic by now. If there was a three arrows in that, wow, that's a fantastic Pic. I can see benefits to people deciding what's important to them (save the flag first or build iron front first) but there are some synergies if the whole group acted together. Notably it provides focus for the graphic designers and all the online imagery would be aligned. That helps with association and conditioning and social proof.
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I have concern with trying to promote Iron Front symbology as the first step. Currently the 3 arrows symbol is associated more with communist antifa groups. Moderates are generally wary of extremists, and the fascists have plausible deniability of extremism by adopting historical American symbols.
11:53 AM
I got into many discussions defending the 3 arrows symbol over the past couple years to people who aren't as plugged in. (edited)
11:56 AM
I do like the AIF red white and blue 3A logo. By adapting the symbol to use american colors, you can avoid the tankie associations.
11:57 AM
I just noticed the web dev channel, but if there is a centralized AIF website that the ads point towards, it would be a good idea to crowdfund ad money. I would be down to contribute
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Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 12:18 PM
Really liking the conversation on here! This is good stuff!
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 12:18 PM
I mean, if we can't even use our own logo, I think we're already finished. I don't believe many tankies are using the logo, I understand the view that it can be associated with tankies for the things stated above: association and conditioning. A lot of this has to do with segmentation - who is the audience? If the audience is other antifascists, they've seen the symbol at rallies, and it may have a tankie vibe. However, if you're putting something on a telephone pole, the audience is everyone who drives or walks by. The symbol may mean different things to them. If you put the symbol nearby other fascist literature or in place of it, it will be associated with fascism. Since fascists on telephone poles overuse americana, you're climbing up hill. So if you wanted to use americana at a protest, that's different than using it on a pamphlet, due to the audience. That being said, I think any tankie associations are proof that we have work to do rather than a change of strategy. Again, I don't believe they're using it, it's just showing up where they are also showing up, and getting associations.
12:20 PM
But part of my whole advise and consult schtick is just that - these are just opinions. If the group or others don't think they're compelling, they aren't compelling. I won't fight for anything, just try and give any advice where people will think it's useful. Part of that is I have to mentally back away, so please don't take that as me pouting or anything. I'll always try my best when asked a question.
12:20 PM
(I have to do this as I have a history of getting overly involved and it having emotional consequences 😄 )
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Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 12:20 PM
@oldfuzybear has a background in branding and marketing, so I wonder if they have any insight into best practices. If you guys have any ideas that you think would be firm ideas that you want to propose, lmk
12:21 PM
Or FuzyBear
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 12:23 PM
Another idea - there's a lot of folks trying to save the American flag. They are at protests. Using the protests as networking opportunities to find these folks and affiliate with them can help as we can all try and pull in the same direction and coordinate. So if you see an American flag on the "right" side, talk to them.
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oldfuzybear 7/6/2022 12:29 PM
@austinwiltshire you are 100% on the right track. The IronFront banner on Reddit is really nice for the combination of imagery. One of the issues is the three arrows is associated online with antifa, which AIF is not. We have the same goals but different methods. Let’s continue to put some thought into this.
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:44 PM
@austinwiltshire Iron Front symbol with rainbow colors maybe? The queer flag I feel aligns with social liberalism pretty well. Rainbow colors are unmistakably non-fascist and instead encourage pluralism. Not everyone is the same but we can work together. However, a lot of people already may have strong ideas about “queer colors” and may be hesitant to use rainbow colors themselves.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:45 PM
We should use colors that have a universalist meaning to them. A uniting symbol
12:46 PM
One that is rooted in American culture and history
12:47 PM
Red white and blue fit this and I think using them instead of designs based on the flag pattern is a more effective design
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12:47 PM
I actually have a hobby of designing flags
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:48 PM
@austinwiltshire What happens if the alt-right somehow steals Iron Front symbols?
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:49 PM
One technique I like to use is to think of the most positive events and or ideals of America's history and base the symbol on that
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12:49 PM
Like lady liberty
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Skullmaggot
@austinwiltshire What happens if the alt-right somehow steals Iron Front symbols?
Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:51 PM
Would be a surprise considering how the IF logo is more known for its connection with anti-fa
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:52 PM
Or, instead of rainbow, pastel or neon colors.
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NordicThor_ 7/6/2022 12:53 PM
Also, the OG logo was used to deface the swastika, so I don’t think the right would take that logo…but you never know what fucked up logic they’d use 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:53 PM
The Three Arrows symbol is popularly used within the antifa movement in the United States, along with flags based on the symbol of Antifa in Germany. Anarchists and anti-fascists frequently use the symbol, usually against authoritarianism, fascism and authoritarian socialism. -wiki
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:53 PM
The rainbow can be a variation but I think the main symbol should be simple
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
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NordicThor_ 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
I do love the idea of making like inclusive variations! The NHL did that throughout the league I think. At least Minnesota anyway
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
This is one of my favs
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
I think if we empathize the meaning of it in our images we could get around the antifsa connections
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
@Marusya Did you get anybody for your design strategy meeting? Do you want to weigh in on the conversation going on here?
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
Memetic warfare is a modern type of information warfare and psychological warfare involving the propagation of memes on social media.
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:54 PM
I think the American flag with the tri-arrows in the corner might fit that role
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:56 PM
I think we should consider meme warfare as a means to take advantage of our capacity as a orginzed and we'll connected, if small online group
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:56 PM
@Braakinthesaddle @Marusya has been wanting to do a design strategy discussion.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:56 PM
Memes are used by the enemy effectively we can and should co-opt it
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Skullmaggot
@Braakinthesaddle @Marusya has been wanting to do a design strategy discussion.
Deleted User 7/6/2022 12:57 PM
I'm up for that
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:57 PM
Saw this while looking for what I was thinking. I was thinking something like the normal US flag with the circle instead in the corner replacing the stars
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Skullmaggot
@Marusya Did you get anybody for your design strategy meeting? Do you want to weigh in on the conversation going on here?
@Dr_Diskette was starting a new job this week and was going to touch base about work schedule so that we could have a meeting. But I will read up on the convo real quick
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Dr_Diskette 7/6/2022 12:59 PM
np I also started my new job
12:59 PM
Currently working on a website
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 12:59 PM
@Marusya Okay, good.
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Marusya
@Dr_Diskette was starting a new job this week and was going to touch base about work schedule so that we could have a meeting. But I will read up on the convo real quick
Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 1:00 PM
I'm open to a design meeting. I won't have much input tho, since my creativity leans more towards wordsmithing and writing rather than graphic design.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 1:01 PM
Instead of the stars we can use something to represent unending union and the diversity of our nation. I think a circle that united into a 4 point star. The north star represents a Americans conception of hope and guidance and when combined into a circle can represent the Unity of our nation in the pursuit of a more perfect union
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 1:01 PM
@Braakinthesaddle You can figure out slogans!
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 1:01 PM
I love sloganeering
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Braakinthesaddle
I'm open to a design meeting. I won't have much input tho, since my creativity leans more towards wordsmithing and writing rather than graphic design.
Graphic design and word smithing are linked anyways. Ties into strategy
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 1:01 PM
@Deleted User hehehe
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 1:03 PM
In dark times there's always room for the light of organizing
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Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 1:08 PM
I like the idea of incorporating Lady Liberty in branding, esp bc you can show the light from her torch driving away the forces of darkness i.e. fascists. There's a poster like that already in use by AIF. I'll try to find it, gimme a sec
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1:12 PM
VaultBoy 2
1:12 PM
I've posted this around DTPHX a few times
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NordicThor_ 7/6/2022 1:13 PM
Well that’s dope!
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Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 1:20 PM
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VaultBoy 3
1:20 PM
Here's another one I really like
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NordicThor_ 7/6/2022 1:21 PM
Yesssssssssssssssss!
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 1:34 PM
It's a cool poster though I think the labels on the arrows could be different
1:34 PM
The 4 freedoms is something we should incorporate
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1:35 PM
It's was the values FDR empsized a new American culture should center on
1:35 PM
Very social democratic
1:40 PM
They can also act as representation of our positive ideals in a way rooted in the best of American traditions
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Deleted User
The 4 freedoms is something we should incorporate
Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 1:44 PM
The social worker in me loves the freedom from want/fear parts of that speech especially.
1:45 PM
The anti-Nazi in me wants to add "freedom from fear...except for Nazis. They should always be afraid."
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Braakinthesaddle
Click to see attachment 🖼️
I like this concept. Some adjustments to the text would make it even stronger.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 1:46 PM
Yep and we can use it in our symbolism
1:51 PM
The great society is something I also like alot
1:52 PM
The concept of a new America order based in a solidaristic morality
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1:52 PM
Wrapped in the ideals of patriotism
1:53 PM
We could use 4f memes to spread and popularize it
1:55 PM
Memes can spread ideas and frame discussions in a very efficient way that takes advantage of our small online nature
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1:55 PM
Self propagating propaganda essentially
1:57 PM
We just need to design some and then use our internet and social media connections to spread them.
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2:03 PM
We won't have much trouble connecting to democratic patriot subs and groups since almost all of them are in one place here and act as an incubator for the content we want to develop. All the potential networking connections we have are centralized here so it will be easier to spread the memes we develop
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2:03 PM
It's called social network tracing I think
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quarantino 7/6/2022 2:48 PM
I love this flag that was spotted recently:
2:50 PM
Throw a few arrows on the Betsy Ross flag sounds good too
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quarantino
I love this flag that was spotted recently:
This is cool. Very captain America-esque
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 2:56 PM
repealing wade is a punch in the face to lady liberty
2:56 PM
sounds good i think
2:57 PM
we could make a poster of lady liberty standing up to a genric justice who punched her in the face
2:58 PM
shes rollong up her sleeves preparing to fight back
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Deleted User
we could make a poster of lady liberty standing up to a genric justice who punched her in the face
I have a more gruesome idea in mind
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 2:58 PM
oh do tell
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Deleted User
oh do tell
I’ll work on it and send an image to the graphic design channel.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 2:59 PM
alright cool
2:59 PM
i think whatever version we use it will be powerful imagery
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Marusya
I’ll work on it and send an image to the graphic design channel.
Braakinthesaddle 7/6/2022 3:05 PM
Can't wait to see this 😈
PES2_EvilPlan 1
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TheAnonymousDew 7/6/2022 4:40 PM
We should also start signing Tear The Fascists down when we march
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 10:25 PM
Hey @Deleted User, you’ve got a lot of good ideas. (I’m specifically thinking of your networking and memetic warfare ideas.) Are you assembling people for any projects? Would you like any help?
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Skullmaggot
Hey @Deleted User, you’ve got a lot of good ideas. (I’m specifically thinking of your networking and memetic warfare ideas.) Are you assembling people for any projects? Would you like any help?
Deleted User 7/6/2022 10:29 PM
Given I have a pretty full plate in my personal life at the moment I'd definitely still would like to see a team get together for it
10:34 PM
A team talented at making memes and at social media would be ideal and I could help guide general creative direction when necessary
10:35 PM
I'm super excited someone likes my idea
10:37 PM
The graphics design channel and any social media related teams could collaborate on this
10:39 PM
As you'd imagine this is a good project for us since we are small and mostly online based
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 10:44 PM
@Deleted User Yep yep. I believe you can always ask Marusya, our Graphic Design Team point person, for projects (although, I believe she’s busy at the moment). We’re getting executive functions set up, defining our identity, and building a design strategy this week. I think once those are all in place, we can then do more social media campaigns and outreach.
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Deleted User 7/6/2022 10:45 PM
Sounds good to me
10:46 PM
Get things in order so we don't do to many things at once without coordination
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Skullmaggot
@austinwiltshire Iron Front symbol with rainbow colors maybe? The queer flag I feel aligns with social liberalism pretty well. Rainbow colors are unmistakably non-fascist and instead encourage pluralism. Not everyone is the same but we can work together. However, a lot of people already may have strong ideas about “queer colors” and may be hesitant to use rainbow colors themselves.
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:12 PM
Yeah I think this would be sound if it were used and created by queer AIF members, otherwise it could come across as tacky as the brands who do the same thing for pride month
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 11:13 PM
Fascists are scared of rainbows though
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Skullmaggot
@austinwiltshire What happens if the alt-right somehow steals Iron Front symbols?
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:13 PM
I'm not sure. It seems like we can burn that bridge when we get there. I can't think of fascists directly trying to use imagery that was against them. They seem to take things that have good connotations and drape themselves with it as a way to cover their own toxicity. Have they tried to take red and black flags, for instance?
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Dr_Diskette
The Three Arrows symbol is popularly used within the antifa movement in the United States, along with flags based on the symbol of Antifa in Germany. Anarchists and anti-fascists frequently use the symbol, usually against authoritarianism, fascism and authoritarian socialism. -wiki
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:16 PM
I may disagree with many folks here, but I have a big tent view of antifa as it is in America. I know the original antifa was more communists and anarchists. But it has come to mean general anti-fascism here, which, to me, means AIF is antifa. Now, you don't have to be an anarchist or a anti-auth communist to join (though I'm sure we have those), whereas the folks holding the red and black flag banners usually mean anarchist+communist (auth or otherwise).
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 11:17 PM
Hello Kitty and Carebears then, lol. I think maybe things that may be more traditionally feminine might be useful. The problem is making it a strong symbol that is not associated with toxic strength.
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Dr_Diskette
Saw this while looking for what I was thinking. I was thinking something like the normal US flag with the circle instead in the corner replacing the stars
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:18 PM
I will support whatever the group decides, but to me, this screams fascist symbol. If I don't explicitly know what the three arrows means, I think this is bad, because I've seen so many other people using the flag ultimately to promote racism or fascism. That's the danger, in my opinion of going too heavy on Americana. The fash already are. For example, it seems very similar to this: https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/images/2022-06/patriot-front-primary-1020.png
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Braakinthesaddle
Click to see attachment 🖼️
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:19 PM
This is definitely better. I've seen images similar to this that specifically break the swastika, and I think that makes it even clearer
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Braakinthesaddle
Click to see attachment 🖼️
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:24 PM
This is super clear. I'm not a graphic designer, though I wonder about cutting some of the language from the top. I'd also start to ask what segment is this poster for - is this for a protest? is this for a telephone pole? is this for a display ad? It would look best online.
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Skullmaggot
Hello Kitty and Carebears then, lol. I think maybe things that may be more traditionally feminine might be useful. The problem is making it a strong symbol that is not associated with toxic strength.
austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:26 PM
Rosie the riveter?
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TheAnonymousDew 7/6/2022 11:27 PM
Found this online
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Skullmaggot 7/6/2022 11:28 PM
@austinwiltshire Maybe not. Never got an antifa vibe from that. What about the inverting the colors so it’s brighter/happier? Make a happy strength symbol.
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austinwiltshire 7/6/2022 11:54 PM
I'm unsure what you're referring to here 🙂
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Doctor Eval 7/7/2022 1:32 AM
I really like the idea of taking back the imagery of the American flag. These fucking fake ass patriot Nazi scum fuck losers can't have it.
1:34 AM
Imperfect as our union may be, it's ours. We should take back the imagery and the language of patriotism. We should take back the language of fealty to the US Constitution. This is our government, we are the majority. Give them no space to declare themselves Patriots when they stand before the true defenders of the constitution
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Skullmaggot 7/7/2022 2:35 AM
@austinwiltshire In the style of your icon for the three arrows, what about black arrows on a white background? Does it help invert the feeling and make it more positive?
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Skullmaggot
@austinwiltshire In the style of your icon for the three arrows, what about black arrows on a white background? Does it help invert the feeling and make it more positive?
austinwiltshire 7/7/2022 9:06 AM
I'm not a graphic design expert but that makes sense to me
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Doctor Eval
Imperfect as our union may be, it's ours. We should take back the imagery and the language of patriotism. We should take back the language of fealty to the US Constitution. This is our government, we are the majority. Give them no space to declare themselves Patriots when they stand before the true defenders of the constitution
TheAnonymousDew 7/7/2022 11:08 AM
Yes
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Skullmaggot 7/7/2022 12:51 PM
@austinwiltshire If we’re going for feelings or impact, you don’t necessarily need to be an expert. It’s even better in some cases that you aren’t because then you react more naturally rather than cerebrally and artificially in the way graphic designers may convince themselves. We’d be putting out designs to the public after all, so what matters is their interpretation, not ours.
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Skullmaggot
@austinwiltshire If we’re going for feelings or impact, you don’t necessarily need to be an expert. It’s even better in some cases that you aren’t because then you react more naturally rather than cerebrally and artificially in the way graphic designers may convince themselves. We’d be putting out designs to the public after all, so what matters is their interpretation, not ours.
Braakinthesaddle 7/7/2022 1:00 PM
That's a really good point. People who aren't experts in a given field tend to react more naturally when a particularly impactful aspect of that field is presented to them.
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austinwiltshire 7/7/2022 1:11 PM
That's true and one benefit of sharing these with friends and family to get their take. One issue on audience and segmentation is telephone posters are probably best in black and white (or black and whatever color of paper.) More elaborate color schemes can do well online as memes
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Skullmaggot 7/7/2022 2:26 PM
@austinwiltshire Less red and black, more green and white
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TheAnonymousDew
Found this online
thechromatograph3r 7/7/2022 2:32 PM
I’m opposed to any design that rips off the U.S. flag
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NordicThor_ 7/7/2022 2:34 PM
As in like “defacing” the flag, or like the color scheme in general? Jw
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Skullmaggot 7/7/2022 2:39 PM
@austinwiltshire The new iron front logo /s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_symbol
The universal recycling symbol (U+2672 ♲ UNIVERSAL RECYCLING SYMBOL or U+267B ♻ BLACK UNIVERSAL RECYCLING SYMBOL in Unicode) is internationally recognized for symbol for recycling activity. The symbol's creation originates on the first Earth Day in 1970, where the logo depicted is a Möbius strip. The public domain status of the symbol has been c...
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austinwiltshire 7/7/2022 2:45 PM
My branding sense says we're gonna get questions on where to put paper and aluminum it we go that dire
2:45 PM
Direction
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quarantino 7/7/2022 2:57 PM
Rotate the arrows so they're all directed down and to the left
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Skullmaggot 7/7/2022 4:20 PM
Joke is joke
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Skullmaggot
Joke is joke
Braakinthesaddle 7/7/2022 4:50 PM
You joke, but I bet we could find ways to use it lol
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Skullmaggot 7/8/2022 1:01 PM
@here All those wishing to attend the upcoming design strategy meeting, please be aware that it may be as soon as Saturday night. Contact @Marusya. (edited)
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Doctor Eval
Imperfect as our union may be, it's ours. We should take back the imagery and the language of patriotism. We should take back the language of fealty to the US Constitution. This is our government, we are the majority. Give them no space to declare themselves Patriots when they stand before the true defenders of the constitution
WojtektheBear 7/8/2022 3:18 PM
Yeah I’m firmly in agreement here the Americana is what differentiates us and is a way of bringing I folks who might be brought into the right
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WojtektheBear
Yeah I’m firmly in agreement here the Americana is what differentiates us and is a way of bringing I folks who might be brought into the right
Doctor Eval 7/8/2022 3:19 PM
Ya know what would be dope af? An armed AIF march in union uniforms
3:20 PM
The military uniforms of the Union Army in the American Civil War were widely varied and, due to limitations on supply of wool and other materials, based on availability and cost of materials. The ideal uniform was prescribed as a dark blue coat with lighter pants, with a black hat. Officer's ranks were denoted with increasing levels of golden d...
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Doctor Eval
Ya know what would be dope af? An armed AIF march in union uniforms
WojtektheBear 7/8/2022 3:21 PM
That would be sick I’ve also said getting T shirts that have the design of the uniforms on them would be neat
3:21 PM
Like one of those shirts that has a tuxedo design on it
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Doctor Eval 7/8/2022 3:22 PM
I think if antifascists started showing up in union attire, it would send a pretty clear message
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Skullmaggot 7/8/2022 5:22 PM
@ArcadeofAuras Hi! I don’t suppose the above conversation is of any interest to you? (edited)
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Skullmaggot
@ArcadeofAuras Hi! I don’t suppose the above conversation is of any interest to you? (edited)
Dr_Diskette 7/8/2022 6:23 PM
They aren’t around rn but what’s up? I’ll dm her
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Skullmaggot 7/8/2022 7:29 PM
@Dr_Diskette I was just wondering if she’d be interested in the costume discussion above.
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WojtektheBear
That would be sick I’ve also said getting T shirts that have the design of the uniforms on them would be neat
ArcadeofAuras 7/8/2022 7:49 PM
Yeah that would be cool!
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Skullmaggot 7/9/2022 12:52 AM
@here Sorry for the late announcement. Please react to this message if you’re interested in attending the design strategy meeting likely happening 5p PST/6p MST/8pm EST Saturday. @quarantino @austinwiltshire @WindandGales @TheAnonymousDew @Deleted User (edited)
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Skullmaggot
@here Sorry for the late announcement. Please react to this message if you’re interested in attending the design strategy meeting likely happening 5p PST/6p MST/8pm EST Saturday. @quarantino @austinwiltshire @WindandGales @TheAnonymousDew @Deleted User (edited)
Doctor Eval 7/9/2022 12:53 AM
if you convert your server into a community server you can use the events feature for planning and announcing scheduled events (edited)
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Skullmaggot 7/9/2022 12:54 AM
@Doctor Eval Okay, I’m unfortunately not well-versed with discord. I’ll be forwarding the idea to our mods @Dr_Diskette and @Kryptik.
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Skullmaggot
@Doctor Eval Okay, I’m unfortunately not well-versed with discord. I’ll be forwarding the idea to our mods @Dr_Diskette and @Kryptik.
im also new to discord so you're not the only one here lol
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Deleted User
I think we should consider meme warfare as a means to take advantage of our capacity as a orginzed and we'll connected, if small online group
I can assist with this
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quarantino
I got into many discussions defending the 3 arrows symbol over the past couple years to people who aren't as plugged in. (edited)
Just wanted to concur - I think people who are not plugged in will not find the Iron Front logo friendly and could even mistake it for fascist or rightwing. My two cents.
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Struggles
Just wanted to concur - I think people who are not plugged in will not find the Iron Front logo friendly and could even mistake it for fascist or rightwing. My two cents.
Skullmaggot 7/12/2022 12:40 AM
That is being discussed extensively in #graphic-designers --how to make (patriotic) logo/symbols that don't look fascist.
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quarantino
I do like the AIF red white and blue 3A logo. By adapting the symbol to use american colors, you can avoid the tankie associations.
Deleted User 7/12/2022 12:43 AM
In my experience tankies don't tend to like the three arrows
12:44 AM
Also the meta in the tankie space at the moment is patriotic socialism, so idk if that would help any
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Deleted User
In my experience tankies don't tend to like the three arrows
Tankies make this well known
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Deleted User
Also the meta in the tankie space at the moment is patriotic socialism, so idk if that would help any
Deleted User 7/12/2022 6:40 AM
They are lying vs we are sincere. They don't have the same goals as us nor would they tolerate our big tent nature
6:41 AM
They offer us nothing
6:41 AM
Toxic online fandoms should be shunned
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6:42 AM
I don't care what tankies think
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AntifaHQ
I can assist with this
Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:14 AM
Perfect
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Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:26 AM
I'll send you the writings I'm basing the meme warfare on
8:27 AM
Names to look up are George lackoff and the concept of social network tracing are good places to begin research on
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/12/2022 8:28 AM
making fun of tankies and meme warfare. Hell yeah!
8:31 AM
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8:31 AM
This i the next book i will be reading
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RaiseRuntimeError
making fun of tankies and meme warfare. Hell yeah!
Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:32 AM
That's the spirit!
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RaiseRuntimeError
This i the next book i will be reading
Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:32 AM
Looks good
8:33 AM
I'm reading the all new dont think of an elephant by George lackoff
8:33 AM
He's a leading expert on political framing
8:35 AM
Generally when we look at how memes and social media have been used to polarize discourse and spread disinformation we should see an opportunity to use those methods for good
8:36 AM
Reframe narratives and depolarize political culture towards a healthy and democratic direction
8:37 AM
@RaiseRuntimeError I love the clippy profile pic
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Deleted User
@RaiseRuntimeError I love the clippy profile pic
RaiseRuntimeError 7/12/2022 8:37 AM
thanks its a new one, used to be the dino game dinosaur with a red cape
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Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:38 AM
Weirdly enough clippy is the more badass of the two
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/12/2022 8:39 AM
Yeah it fits my personality too, i like to interject at awkward moments and sometimes i am helpful
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Deleted User 7/12/2022 8:40 AM
Ha!
8:40 AM
There is no figure more feared then that of clippy
Deleted User started a thread. 7/12/2022 10:47 AM
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Deleted User 7/12/2022 11:21 AM
@AntifaHQ i created a thread for meme warfare if your interested
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11:21 AM
#deleted-channel
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Deleted User
I don't care what tankies think
Deleted User 7/12/2022 2:09 PM
Ditto on that All I am really saying here is that the arrows aren't a symbol readily adopted by tankies, so the fears of the three arrows being a tankie symbol are a bit unfounded (Tankies tend to side with the KPD even though the USSR and Rosa didn't see eye to eye in the slightest)
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thechromatograph3r 7/13/2022 5:29 PM
One by one, Daryl Davis has befriended KKK members over the past 30 years. The more they got to know the African-American musician, the more they realized the Klan was not for them.
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Daryl Davis is a legend.
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Deleted User 7/13/2022 11:20 PM
He's got a great podcast
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thechromatograph3r 7/14/2022 4:53 PM
On this encore presentation of It’s Going Down, we speak with three residents of the Tenacious Unicorn Ranch, a trans anarchist homestead, and talk about the release of the upcoming documentary film, Tenacious, and how people living on the ranch mobilized over the past year against threats from the far-Right. We also discuss homesteading in an …...
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birb
Daryl Davis is a legend.
Great Leader 7/15/2022 10:00 AM
The only real problem is now all the enlightened centrists and pacifists cite him when they suggest we shouldn't use violence in self defence and should play the long game.
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Deleted User 7/15/2022 10:01 AM
Who cares what those people think
10:01 AM
That's got nothing to do with what he does
10:02 AM
And if someone actually does believe in pacifism they have a right to do so
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Great Leader 7/15/2022 10:03 AM
Of course. The underlying issue, I think, is that they condemn us disproportionately to the fascists for using violence.
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Deleted User 7/15/2022 10:04 AM
Who
10:04 AM
Your complaining about a straw man
10:04 AM
Don't waste your time getting angry over that
10:05 AM
Who is us anyway
10:05 AM
That whole statement makes no sense
10:07 AM
In all my years of activism I have yet to meet one of these enlightened centrist
10:08 AM
Focus on yourself and you'll be healthier
10:09 AM
If we go to worrying what straw men think we end up being unable to see the positives in anything (edited)
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I love this story, perfect example of marginalized peoples taking no shit
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ST3ALTHG1NG3R 7/17/2022 5:41 PM
How do you help these people remove there heads from Ted Cruz's asshole...
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Seems kinda like they want to say "13/50" and be done with it (edited)
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ST3ALTHG1NG3R 7/17/2022 9:35 PM
What do you mean 13/50?
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Oh its the dogwhistle thing racist folks say It refers to black folks making up 13% of the population and 50% of the crimes. That's the vibe i got from the guy you spoke to
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ST3ALTHG1NG3R
How do you help these people remove there heads from Ted Cruz's asshole...
Bro exoneration rates are insane right now too, let's not forget non-violent drug and crimes that get you in prison for 1 year+, this person's an idiot.
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Nomad
Oh its the dogwhistle thing racist folks say It refers to black folks making up 13% of the population and 50% of the crimes. That's the vibe i got from the guy you spoke to
Nevermind that the statistic is solely for arrests and doesn't account for conviction rates and more, alongside economic and cultural issues, anyone who uses that or says that is an idiot
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No, of course it doesn't account for nuance, racists and conservatives are reactionary
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BrutusBrutus 7/19/2022 3:32 AM
Something that I’ve been noticing lately on some platforms is after RvW was overturned, there was a week where everyone on social media seemed to have learned their lesson, then a week later, a bunch of anti-Biden/democrats, anti-voting stuff started appearing everywhere in left-wing circles. One of the guys who posted in a subreddit, turned out to be posting fascist propaganda elsewhere. This is just one sample, but it seems to be a possible microcosm for a trend, lately.
3:34 AM
While a lot of democrats need to get their shit in order, be sure to call this stuff out and signal boost the idea that this might be happening within left-wing circles
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Convincing democrat and leftist voters to be apathetic is much easier than converting them. It's a strategy that's worked well in the past and with enough astroturfing will work again.
5:18 PM
But it's hard to get some potential voters to see what's happening even as it happens right in front of them
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thechromatograph3r 7/19/2022 5:19 PM
Precisely. All Republicans need to win elections is to convince Democrats not to vote.
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thechromatograph3r
Precisely. All Republicans need to win elections is to convince Democrats not to vote.
A political clusterfuck 7/19/2022 9:04 PM
I absolutely HATE the democrats but I vote for them anyway(usually, if there is an independent or third party that doesnt like republicans I am going with them but there isnt in my state) because they my be corrupt, idealistic, insanely incompetent, way too nice to the fascists, and do not actually care, but they are at least not extreme right authoritarians hell bent on establishing a fascist theocracy where all who arent white evangelical christian men that like trump suffer.
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thechromatograph3r
Precisely. All Republicans need to win elections is to convince Democrats not to vote.
MrsKawasaki 7/20/2022 7:00 AM
Excellent strategy
7:02 AM
I wish Dems would employ it more
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MrsKawasaki
Excellent strategy
I remember hearing a little bit of that happening in Georgia in the last midterms, where some of the MAGAs didn't want to vote for the R because they were too "mainstream" I think we could have a pretty decent opportunity to disrupt the R vote with the Libertarian Party. Back before the Tea Party began, the LP seemed to attract more left leaning people. But since 2010 and especially most recently, the LP has been taken over by far-right and white nationalists. We could encourage more mainstream Republicans to "follow their hearts" and vote Libertarian, thereby splitting the vote and ensuring both of those sides lose political power
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MrsKawasaki 7/20/2022 7:23 AM
Inside the Reddit communities that can’t leave the right-wing internet alone
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Steve Mike
I remember hearing a little bit of that happening in Georgia in the last midterms, where some of the MAGAs didn't want to vote for the R because they were too "mainstream" I think we could have a pretty decent opportunity to disrupt the R vote with the Libertarian Party. Back before the Tea Party began, the LP seemed to attract more left leaning people. But since 2010 and especially most recently, the LP has been taken over by far-right and white nationalists. We could encourage more mainstream Republicans to "follow their hearts" and vote Libertarian, thereby splitting the vote and ensuring both of those sides lose political power
MrsKawasaki 7/20/2022 7:30 AM
There are some folks pursuing ideas like this
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Doctor Eval 7/20/2022 7:32 AM
We should definitely start a psyop campaign to split the R vote
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7:32 AM
These people are credulous rubes
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7:33 AM
All we would have to do is flood the zone with interesting rumors and disinformation
7:33 AM
Something that speaks to their biases and fears
7:33 AM
Ya know, like Russia does
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MrsKawasaki 7/20/2022 7:39 AM
Now you’re speaking my language
7:40 AM
I know of one that’s been running since 2020
7:43 AM
Democrats won’t put resources into these strategies like Republicans, so folks have to get a bit creative about it
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Doctor Eval 7/20/2022 7:54 AM
That's because Democrats are cowards and moderates who don't have the balls to take any risk, which is why they suck so hard at getting elected despite having an obviously more attractive platform
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7:55 AM
Also, I love the phrase "Flood the zone"
7:57 AM
TBH we should start bot harvesting now to have the puppet accounts ready for October
7:57 AM
If that's what we wanna do
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/20/2022 9:28 AM
hey this sounds fun
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Doctor Eval 7/20/2022 10:11 AM
If you think it sounds like fun, I want you to be involved
10:11 AM
I don't necessarily want to be involved, I'm more of an ideas guy
10:12 AM
But if you guys think it's a great idea, don't waste time. Find someone to lead the initiative, and start operationalizing as soon as possible
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MrsKawasaki 7/20/2022 10:22 AM
Go for Twitter and Truth Social
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CaulPartBallMop 7/21/2022 11:55 PM
Emailing mg1060mcia.10 (1).pdf
11:55 PM
So I found this record of methodology for psyops from efforts in Afghanistan. It's up here ^ in the link.
11:57 PM
I know we aren't dealing with Afghani tribes as much but the methods seem sound, and the christofaction seems to resemble terrorist cell's more every day. Just with a god that makes even less sense somehow
12:00 AM
There's also some failed operations in here that are kind of hilarious in how tasteless they are lol
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CaulPartBallMop 7/22/2022 1:34 AM
To summarize: The US doesn't have good tracking of analytics and can't judge their psyop effectiveness for shit. So detailed analytics and targeting would be priority in an initiative we do
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Doctor Eval 7/22/2022 7:33 AM
Ya know, ads are cheap
this 2
7:33 AM
And they do hella targeting
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CaulPartBallMop 7/22/2022 3:11 PM
Definitely heard on that. Just saying close monitoring of what ads/memes we use and carefully measuring how effective they are will be a big part of it.
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Separate but related issue, have we considered putting together a full press recruitment / analytics team? Put together a content farm & editorial team, run the content across a few a accounts, optimize with A/B testing. Keep track of new membership, recruiting details, start logging skillets & interests manually with an OSINT team. Start throwing people busy work to keep the machine running. Start organizing small local events, task oriented not meetups so that we can start gauging actual boots on the ground engagement without drama. Convert those groups into on the ground community organizing groups armed with propaganda from the editorial team. Start having them reach out to friends & family. (I swear I just spent way too long in the culty end of christendom as a child/teenager & don't currently run a cult. Yay child abuse.) (edited)
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9:17 AM
Awesome comment thread worth reading
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November
Separate but related issue, have we considered putting together a full press recruitment / analytics team? Put together a content farm & editorial team, run the content across a few a accounts, optimize with A/B testing. Keep track of new membership, recruiting details, start logging skillets & interests manually with an OSINT team. Start throwing people busy work to keep the machine running. Start organizing small local events, task oriented not meetups so that we can start gauging actual boots on the ground engagement without drama. Convert those groups into on the ground community organizing groups armed with propaganda from the editorial team. Start having them reach out to friends & family. (I swear I just spent way too long in the culty end of christendom as a child/teenager & don't currently run a cult. Yay child abuse.) (edited)
WojtektheBear 7/24/2022 3:04 PM
If you’re interested in this @Skullmaggot and @Hodari work on the human resource team. We’re doing our best but a lot is in flux atm
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WojtektheBear
If you’re interested in this @Skullmaggot and @Hodari work on the human resource team. We’re doing our best but a lot is in flux atm
I'm happy to help, but do be aware that I work really nasty hours and can only help out 1 or 2 nights a week.
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November
I'm happy to help, but do be aware that I work really nasty hours and can only help out 1 or 2 nights a week.
WojtektheBear 7/24/2022 3:08 PM
We do what we can, however we can, whenever can, nothing more or less. All good!
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WojtektheBear
If you’re interested in this @Skullmaggot and @Hodari work on the human resource team. We’re doing our best but a lot is in flux atm
Skullmaggot 7/24/2022 4:18 PM
Yeah, if you find other people who want to do stuff, @ me!
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Skullmaggot
Yeah, if you find other people who want to do stuff, @ me!
WojtektheBear 7/24/2022 4:18 PM
Will do my guy keep up the stellar work (edited)
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Doctor Eval 7/25/2022 1:03 AM
I'm pretty excited about getting involved again as soon as I have the means to
1:03 AM
I've been rocking along with like one bar of LTE for the last week
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Doctor Eval 7/25/2022 2:27 AM
resist_anim 4
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Sounds illegal
2:53 AM
Good idea though but I swear there’s some law against this
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Ozzy7
Good idea though but I swear there’s some law against this
Doctor Eval 7/25/2022 9:33 AM
I think it's workable with the appropriate legal language
9:34 AM
I have access to legal counsel. I'll send an email
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Doctor Eval
I think it's workable with the appropriate legal language
thechromatograph3r 7/26/2022 5:37 PM
This is the correct answer
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Can we mail them cat shit?
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birb
Can we mail them cat shit?
100% legal
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joe hill’s revenge 7/27/2022 4:36 PM
Any chance of playing our enemies against eachother? I know that nsc has bad blood with patriot front for example
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Casey
The sub they mentioned is hilarious, check it out: https://www.reddit.com/r/parlertrick/
Oh I'm talking to a r/ParlerTrick mod, godspeed.
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joe hill’s revenge 7/27/2022 9:43 PM
Anyone know why pf and nsc hate eachother?
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Casey
Oh I'm talking to a r/ParlerTrick mod, godspeed.
MrsKawasaki 7/27/2022 10:08 PM
Thanks
10:09 PM
We have enjoyed it
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joe hill’s revenge
Anyone know why pf and nsc hate eachother?
MrsKawasaki 7/27/2022 10:15 PM
Probably because they compete for membership
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joe hill’s revenge
Any chance of playing our enemies against eachother? I know that nsc has bad blood with patriot front for example
Ik proud boys and patriot front also don’t like each other
11:22 PM
There was a recorded instance in which one group crashed the others recruitment event/drive
11:24 PM
Proud boys are like the orcs of the alt right, their initiation rituals are akin to college fraternities
11:24 PM
And they act, well, orc-like
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/28/2022 10:56 AM
That was kind of the point behind the unite the right rally right? Set aside their differences about how they hate everyone and each other to just focus their hate to the left.
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Great Leader 7/28/2022 11:01 AM
Basically, yeah
11:01 AM
And they managed to fuck it up
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RaiseRuntimeError
That was kind of the point behind the unite the right rally right? Set aside their differences about how they hate everyone and each other to just focus their hate to the left.
This is how patriot front was born. The alt right couldn’t stand being a united front and out of the political turmoil patriot front was organised
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Great Leader
And they managed to fuck it up
RaiseRuntimeError 7/28/2022 11:18 AM
Their one saving grace
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Doctor Eval 7/28/2022 12:22 PM
Here's a fun idea. Put out propaganda talking shit about one organization with the logo and imagery of another organization. Post flyers on phone poles and stuff.
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12:22 PM
I love the idea of creating a fascist infighting war
12:22 PM
Let them eat themselves
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JohnBrosGhost 7/28/2022 12:22 PM
pit the PF against the PBs. That'd be hilarious to watch play out
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Doctor Eval 7/28/2022 12:23 PM
Pedo Boys Not Welcome Here NSC131
12:24 PM
Don't be a proud boy. Be a strong man. Patriot Front
12:25 PM
Lol
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Doctor Eval 7/28/2022 12:39 PM
There are 1,488 reasons to slaughter a rooster 🐔 NSC131
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joe hill’s revenge 7/28/2022 1:00 PM
Patriot front looks like dollar store captain America
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Doctor Eval
Here's a fun idea. Put out propaganda talking shit about one organization with the logo and imagery of another organization. Post flyers on phone poles and stuff.
Braakinthesaddle 7/28/2022 1:42 PM
Let's see if we can get someone in #graphic-designers to design some of these
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Doctor Eval
Here's a fun idea. Put out propaganda talking shit about one organization with the logo and imagery of another organization. Post flyers on phone poles and stuff.
thechromatograph3r 7/28/2022 1:45 PM
Taking the Russian troll approach: sewing discord among people you dislike. Solid psy-op.
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joe hill’s revenge
Patriot front looks like dollar store captain America
RaiseRuntimeError 7/28/2022 1:45 PM
Captain America, looks like Dollar General to me
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Casey
The sub they mentioned is hilarious, check it out: https://www.reddit.com/r/parlertrick/
This is my sub
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thechromatograph3r
Taking the Russian troll approach: sewing discord among people you dislike. Solid psy-op.
Discord? Use their social media sites instead: create accounts on Twitter, Gab, Truth, GreatAwakening
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JohnBrosGhost 7/28/2022 2:24 PM
FR tho, we really need to be doing this.
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Well the infrastructure exists, and we have the ability to manipulate those specific platforms
2:56 PM
All we need is more content
2:57 PM
But they have to be well done, no shit tier memes like most of what we get from r/ParlerTrick (edited)
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JohnBrosGhost 7/28/2022 2:59 PM
Mocking up press releases, making fake PB/PF twitters, etc just hating on one another. Make other accounts to repost, agree with shit, let spiral.
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JohnBrosGhost
Mocking up press releases, making fake PB/PF twitters, etc just hating on one another. Make other accounts to repost, agree with shit, let spiral.
RaiseRuntimeError 7/28/2022 3:12 PM
exactly
3:13 PM
but maybe less on having them PB/PF going at eachother but have them angry at their politicians
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JohnBrosGhost 7/28/2022 3:19 PM
All the above.
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AntifaHQ
Discord? Use their social media sites instead: create accounts on Twitter, Gab, Truth, GreatAwakening
thechromatograph3r 7/28/2022 5:40 PM
I’m using “discord” in the dictionary sense of the word.
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Lol right, sorry
5:45 PM
My brain is too social media focused
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AntifaHQ
My brain is too social media focused
thechromatograph3r 7/28/2022 6:47 PM
rip
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Gotta know it to beat it
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thechromatograph3r
Taking the Russian troll approach: sewing discord among people you dislike. Solid psy-op.
I spent a fair chunk of highschool making fake Brady campaign ads
1:21 AM
Don't forget to do your research & create a style guide for the organizations your faking. All the little subtle things matter.
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The fuck did I just read
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November
I spent a fair chunk of highschool making fake Brady campaign ads
thechromatograph3r 7/29/2022 8:36 AM
WTF is this??
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thechromatograph3r
WTF is this??
A fake ad campaign me & the morons on /k/ started & spread on social media where we impersonated the brady campaign & then said really out of pocket shit to discredit them. in my defense I was a teenager on the internet in 2012, blame my parents. I do. theres a snopes page about it now. (edited)
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8:41 AM
if you want to talk about creating fake conflict & propaganda among the alt-right, it's important to remember where they came from.
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Mildly amusing but also terrible lol
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Doctor Eval
Let them eat themselves
Skullmaggot 7/30/2022 12:33 AM
That'd only be temporary once they figure out they're being played.
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Skullmaggot
That'd only be temporary once they figure out they're being played.
Doctor Eval 7/30/2022 11:56 AM
Yeah? How are they going to figure that out?
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JohnBrosGhost 7/30/2022 11:57 AM
Yeah, they’ve been getting played by Russia for years.
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Skullmaggot 7/30/2022 1:22 PM
I guess if you’re secret it may be alright. They’ve been played by Russia because it aligns with their values.
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You know ..I've been contemplating designing posters that mimic that angry feel of a lot of right wing media....but it breaks down leftist policies in a easily digestible and more importantly, emotional, way. That can be spammed everywhere. In mass. Like memes and posters that show up in the image boards
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Aces high
You know ..I've been contemplating designing posters that mimic that angry feel of a lot of right wing media....but it breaks down leftist policies in a easily digestible and more importantly, emotional, way. That can be spammed everywhere. In mass. Like memes and posters that show up in the image boards
Doctor Eval 7/31/2022 12:39 PM
There's a term for this. It's called memetic warfare. There are entire design firms and think tanks that do nothing but pump out memes that push narratives
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JohnBrosGhost
Yeah, they’ve been getting played by Russia for years.
thechromatograph3r 7/31/2022 2:30 PM
But Russia is full of professionals. The American left is woefully ineffective at things like this.
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Aces high
You know ..I've been contemplating designing posters that mimic that angry feel of a lot of right wing media....but it breaks down leftist policies in a easily digestible and more importantly, emotional, way. That can be spammed everywhere. In mass. Like memes and posters that show up in the image boards
thechromatograph3r 7/31/2022 2:31 PM
You’d be surprised how willingly right wingers will agree with left-wing policies if presented the right way.
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Aces high
You know ..I've been contemplating designing posters that mimic that angry feel of a lot of right wing media....but it breaks down leftist policies in a easily digestible and more importantly, emotional, way. That can be spammed everywhere. In mass. Like memes and posters that show up in the image boards
Skullmaggot 7/31/2022 5:01 PM
Post graphic design projects on the #graphic-designers channel!
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austinwiltshire 8/3/2022 6:20 PM
I lead a group that ran ads during the last election doing a lot of this
6:20 PM
Counter prop is easier than propaganda, cheaper too, since you just have to figure out the message that won and shine a light on it.
6:21 PM
The russian method of propaganda is the firehose of lies. Basically, everyone says all kinds of shit all the time. Eventually, twitter runs with something, you can never predict what. Then all at once all of your channels switch to THAT message to boost it.
6:22 PM
It's very empirical. Certainly, you want to put some thought into each message, no doubt. But it's a volume game. And your entire operation needs to turn on a time when your measurements show something is trending organically.
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austinwiltshire
It's very empirical. Certainly, you want to put some thought into each message, no doubt. But it's a volume game. And your entire operation needs to turn on a time when your measurements show something is trending organically.
heinz_ketchup 8/3/2022 7:23 PM
doesn't Russia also use a method of having say 3 people in a forum, essentially staging a fake argument which resolves to the narrative they want, as a way to control disagreement?
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austinwiltshire 8/3/2022 7:23 PM
I am not familiar with the stuff they did on forums, just studied what they did to get topics trending
7:23 PM
That seems effective though
7:24 PM
The book "influence" covers a lot of this. Fascinating book.
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austinwiltshire
That seems effective though
heinz_ketchup 8/3/2022 7:24 PM
do you know who the author of that book is? so I can find it
7:25 PM
is it Robert Cialdini
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austinwiltshire 8/3/2022 7:25 PM
Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RLT11Q3/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_KWHBJTCS5PSJV2WW2TMJ
Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion
7:25 PM
Yes
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heinz_ketchup 8/3/2022 7:26 PM
cool
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austinwiltshire 8/3/2022 7:26 PM
Jason Stanley also has a book on propaganda, more from a philosophical position than as a practitioner
7:26 PM
The fact argument resolving to their narrative would be examples of caldinis "authority" and "social proof" tactics at play.
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heinz_ketchup 8/3/2022 7:27 PM
set boundaries on what is allowed to be the range of opinions and let people fight in that zone
7:30 PM
I suspect this is what is driving tankies in the US: the Russians are pushing both extremes of right and left to destabilize things, Christian nationalism being the far right, and tankies being the far left. tankies would also take resources and membership away from other leftist groups.
7:31 PM
(for anyone thinking the Russians aren't doing that, the DOJ recently arrested some Russian folks for pushing the California separatist movement, and back in 2017 I think there was a Texas separatist protest in Houston that was organized by Russia)
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austinwiltshire 8/3/2022 8:07 PM
Oh 100%
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austinwiltshire
Jason Stanley also has a book on propaganda, more from a philosophical position than as a practitioner
RaiseRuntimeError 8/4/2022 8:51 AM
How Propaganda Works, super dry and didnt really get much actionable stuff from it. It was an interesting book though.
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heinz_ketchup
(for anyone thinking the Russians aren't doing that, the DOJ recently arrested some Russian folks for pushing the California separatist movement, and back in 2017 I think there was a Texas separatist protest in Houston that was organized by Russia)
AlexanderthePrettyGood 8/4/2022 2:36 PM
A wiser man than I once said, "A house divided cannot stand" the Russians, the Chinese, they are fully aware they cannot beat us and destroy American Hegemony on their own. So they know they must get us to destroy it ourselves by collapsing in on ourselves. The worst and most shameful part of this, is that they have repeatedly tried to use our greatest strength, our diversity of Peoples, against us. They think our lack of homogeneity makes us weak. They are mistaken. Remember my fellow Americans, our diversity is what makes us strong. It is the driving force of American Exceptionalism, that our greatness is not confined to one ethnic group, but that any Human Being on Planet Earth can come here and join us.
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austinwiltshire
The russian method of propaganda is the firehose of lies. Basically, everyone says all kinds of shit all the time. Eventually, twitter runs with something, you can never predict what. Then all at once all of your channels switch to THAT message to boost it.
thechromatograph3r 8/4/2022 4:07 PM
Or they change the narrative so often that no one knows the truth
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AlexanderthePrettyGood
A wiser man than I once said, "A house divided cannot stand" the Russians, the Chinese, they are fully aware they cannot beat us and destroy American Hegemony on their own. So they know they must get us to destroy it ourselves by collapsing in on ourselves. The worst and most shameful part of this, is that they have repeatedly tried to use our greatest strength, our diversity of Peoples, against us. They think our lack of homogeneity makes us weak. They are mistaken. Remember my fellow Americans, our diversity is what makes us strong. It is the driving force of American Exceptionalism, that our greatness is not confined to one ethnic group, but that any Human Being on Planet Earth can come here and join us.
thechromatograph3r 8/4/2022 4:07 PM
Well, China and Russia are succeeding in tearing us apart. Right. Fucking. Now.
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They're dominating psyops. Fascism might have been around before Hitler, but modern fascism is the product of both educational failures and foreign state meddling, merging with that old school hate. (edited)
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thechromatograph3r
Well, China and Russia are succeeding in tearing us apart. Right. Fucking. Now.
AlexanderthePrettyGood 8/4/2022 4:16 PM
I would argue the results in Kansas is showing the opposite. Americans love to fight amongst ourselves, but we have a unique ability to circle the wagons so to speak when larger threats arise.
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The fact that abortion was even on the docket in the first place, is the product of foreign operations dividing us.
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Regnion
The fact that abortion was even on the docket in the first place, is the product of foreign operations dividing us.
AlexanderthePrettyGood 8/4/2022 4:50 PM
And the fact that the Amendment was defeated is evidence that this division is not working as planned.
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heinz_ketchup 8/4/2022 4:55 PM
honestly how is Rand Paul not in deep trouble? dude is obviously working for Russia. A number of Texas representatives spent July 4th 2018 in Moscow. How is that not an issue? If a bunch of Democrats did that, Fox news would explode.
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heinz_ketchup
honestly how is Rand Paul not in deep trouble? dude is obviously working for Russia. A number of Texas representatives spent July 4th 2018 in Moscow. How is that not an issue? If a bunch of Democrats did that, Fox news would explode.
AlexanderthePrettyGood 8/4/2022 5:07 PM
Because there is a band of traitors to America in high places to dismantle our Republic.
5:08 PM
and unfortunately, there are many Americans like Reg who are perfectly fine with Justice denied through delay.
no 2
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samlovespossums 8/4/2022 5:45 PM
goddamn dude can you stop
5:46 PM
why does there need to be an issue
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AlexanderthePrettyGood
and unfortunately, there are many Americans like Reg who are perfectly fine with Justice denied through delay.
Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 1:59 AM
Spicy. Leftist infighting is how the fascists win. Every time you take a swipe at your comrades, a fascist gets his wings
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heinz_ketchup
honestly how is Rand Paul not in deep trouble? dude is obviously working for Russia. A number of Texas representatives spent July 4th 2018 in Moscow. How is that not an issue? If a bunch of Democrats did that, Fox news would explode.
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 9:17 AM
If Democrats did that, everyone would explode.
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Doctor Eval
Spicy. Leftist infighting is how the fascists win. Every time you take a swipe at your comrades, a fascist gets his wings
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 9:17 AM
And this is why leftist organizations never get anywhere.
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thechromatograph3r
And this is why leftist organizations never get anywhere.
Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:30 AM
Why is that?
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I don't block people out of principle, even if they're trying to attack my character simply because I critiqued some creative writing of theirs that gave me, a reader of their work, a mixed-message. When someone goes out of their way to attack your character repeatedly, across multiple channels, and never deigns to explain their arguments, it's simply counter-productive and harms discussion. That type of shutting down of debates, of silencing opposing voices instead of responding in a polite, measured fashion, is the modus operandi of the Conservatives. Instead of explain themselves, they lash out and try to nitpick petty fights. If you want to learn to recognize psyops and propaganda, you need to not only learn how to ask questions and think critically, but also analyze the words you're reading. Is it trying to imply something? Is it contradicting itself? Is it trying to sell me on an ideal instead of facts? Propaganda is a tool used by everyone, left and right, to influence the masses. We can't afford to allow propaganda to give us a false sense of security. You can't rely on belief. Even memes are often propaganda, whether its to garner favor for your favorite show, or bash some game, it's all trying to pull opinion. Ask the questions, call out the things that are contradictory, challenge things. If you aren't able to defend your words, you stand on shaky ground and need to go back to the drawing board. If you can defend your words, perhaps it was a misunderstanding, or, you've just educated the person challenging you, or educated yourself. That is how you counter psyops, and that is how refine your own work.
10:34 AM
Critical thinking, asking the questions, taking the feedback, explaining your ideas. It's all practice, it's all training and refinement, and it keeps you on a steady course. You'll either learn things, or hopefully, teach things. Even if it was all just a mistake or misunderstanding. (edited)
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:38 AM
I think the most important things I heard from that text wall are: Attacking people who disagree with you makes you wrong, even if the thing they disagreed with was right. Metacognition and introspection are really hard.
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Pretty much. Don't attack the person, attack the "argument."
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:40 AM
I've noticed that attacking the person instead of the argument tends to be the strategy employed by people who are lacking in critical thinking skills, or simply have an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex
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Regnion
Pretty much. Don't attack the person, attack the "argument."
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 10:40 AM
IOW, avoid ad hominem attacks. (edited)
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It's an exercise for you to refine your own thoughts as well, so even if the person coming at you is absolutely incorrect, you explaining yourself is effectively practice.
10:42 AM
Someone trying to sell you on some lie, like the election was stolen, they will be very passionate. They will attack and belittle others, and its up to you to recognize that they're not only making up wild accusations, but they're contradicting themselves, or making logical leaps. Critical thinking, challenging ideas, means you get better at identifying it, and is good practice.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:42 AM
Attacking people instead of ideas can also be a trained trauma response that comes from living in an environment where your knowledge is consistently rejected
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I think that boils down to bullying creating angry people, really.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:44 AM
I would surmise that a person growing up in an environment with a highly authoritarian set of parents would have difficulty
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Doctor Eval
Why is that?
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 10:44 AM
Like Reg touched on, it seems that people on the political left are more prone to infighting because they've become big-tent ideologies, which often clash at least somewhat. Also, people on the left tend to be more educated and thus ask more questions and challenge each other in ways that people on the political right don't. People on the right are motivated by fear and so they quickly fall in line.
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thechromatograph3r
Like Reg touched on, it seems that people on the political left are more prone to infighting because they've become big-tent ideologies, which often clash at least somewhat. Also, people on the left tend to be more educated and thus ask more questions and challenge each other in ways that people on the political right don't. People on the right are motivated by fear and so they quickly fall in line.
Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:45 AM
I strongly agree. It is a baked in disadvantage that we all have the cognitive capacity and the emotional capacity to think differently and also give a shit. Which is why it is incumbent upon us to engage in respectful discourse around differing ideas.
10:46 AM
I've been criticized a handful of times for my violent rhetoric. I personally want to see every single January 6th insurrectionist hung in the public square. That's a very unpopular opinion.
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I'd argue it's not that it's unpopular, it's just that we don't want this server to end up on the news for calling for violent murder if something ever does happen.
10:49 AM
Everyone wants justice, and, everyone has different levels or expectation for what "justice" entails. Capital punishment, torture, life in prison, removal of rights. Everyone has a preference, but we're here for democracy and a fair and just legal system.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 10:49 AM
I don't know, I feel like attempting to assassinate the entire chain of succession is pretty hangworthy
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I wasn't saying it isn't, nor that it is; only that feedback you get is due to these varying opinions, and that ultimately justice needs to be fair and determined by democratic means.
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Doctor Eval
I've been criticized a handful of times for my violent rhetoric. I personally want to see every single January 6th insurrectionist hung in the public square. That's a very unpopular opinion.
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 10:53 AM
Remember: things are hung; people are hanged.
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People can be hung, too. 😏 (edited)
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Doctor Eval
I don't know, I feel like attempting to assassinate the entire chain of succession is pretty hangworthy
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 10:54 AM
As much as I want to agree with you, I feel like that would just catalyze the rightoids towards violence even more.
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"The LEFTISTS wanna HANG US for FIGHTING for OUR RIGHTS" I mean they're already saying that shit, but like, pushing that narrative doesn't help and just gives them "evidence" to parade around.
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 10:56 AM
its not popular to say, but understanding language and manipulation requires a lot of emotional intelligence and usually a lot of therapy experience. George Lakoff near the end of his career really got into this, embodiment, cognition, and how language impacts us.
10:57 AM
one thing that is missing on the left is practical implementation of the work of Lakoff and others.
10:57 AM
the right has Frank Luntz and his focus groups and their media machine is all about it.
10:58 AM
the effectiveness of propaganda and manipulation is inversely proportional to a person's inner locus of control and somato-psychic groundedness. (pardon the lack of better phrasing).
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dumb Tomato-physics
11:00 AM
I like your funny words, ketchup man.
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:00 AM
somato-psychic is the inverse of psychosomatic, and recognizes the bottom-up nature of consciousness and cognition, that it is driven by experience in the body, and not the other way around, which is IMO capitalist brainwashing (we can use our thoughts to control our feelings, so your unhappiness is your own fault, get back to work and be happy slave!)
11:01 AM
or as Bessel van der Kolk said, "trying to control your feelings by thinking thoughts is like a toddler trying to push an elephant"
11:02 AM
anyway that is a little off the path of what I am trying to say, which is that propaganda is all about emotional manipulation, and a person must have ownership and integration of their emotional processes in order to be aware of attempts at hijacking of that system
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I agree 100%.
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:03 AM
I get in trouble when trying to explain this to the local tankie CP, that to them Communism is a religion, a cult, it provides a sense of belonging, a heroic journey that gives their lives meaning, and explains their suffering, and is dangerous in that sense.
kek 2
11:04 AM
it does not develop them as human beings, into more mature, integrated selves. it hijacks them into the borg mind
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Anything that plays on your beliefs or emotions, instead of factual information, is trying to achieve some end goal that is worth double-checking. Is it simply feel-good? Or is it subterfuge?
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:04 AM
which also precludes any meaningful discussion about communism, because any criticism is met with an instant emotional defensive response
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Regnion
Anything that plays on your beliefs or emotions, instead of factual information, is trying to achieve some end goal that is worth double-checking. Is it simply feel-good? Or is it subterfuge?
heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:04 AM
yes
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Yeah, I wasn't familiar with the technical words, but I've heard and explored these concepts before, your explanation was very good.
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11:06 AM
That's why I said memes are often propaganda. Sometimes it's silly, like trying to rile up fans of a game to shit talk another, but others try to evoke an emotional response, like outrage. It's like an intro course to propaganda making. (edited)
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11:07 AM
I personally enjoy the overtly, ironic "obvious propaganda" pro-NATO memes and shit, but it's the sneaky ones that are dangerous.
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Regnion
That's why I said memes are often propaganda. Sometimes it's silly, like trying to rile up fans of a game to shit talk another, but others try to evoke an emotional response, like outrage. It's like an intro course to propaganda making. (edited)
heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:09 AM
years ago I read this interesting book "The Alphabet vs the Goddess" by Leonard Shlain. the thesis of the book is based on Marshall McLuhan's phrase "the medium is the message". in other words, the form of communication has a bigger impact than the communication itself. in other words, reading a book has a certain effect, that is why religious folks love the written word and books. Watching TV has a different effect, different part of the brain gets the message from watching colorful images. unfortunately he died years ago so didn't get to memes. but I would love to see some reflection on memes as a form of communication. they are like small, quick emotional shots.
11:10 AM
its like the native form of emotional expression to the internet
11:10 AM
and also why deep, meaningful, complex emotional experience is pretty much the opposite of the internet
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Yeah, that would be interesting. I feel like I've heard that "medium is the message" before as well. I'm not sure how you would study, but first step would be like a CAT scan to see what sections light up. I'm sure it's comparable to TV, but it is also reading.
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:10 AM
why nazis are always like "its just a joke bro" because their method of relating to the world is shallow, meaningless jokes
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That and, plausible deniability.
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thechromatograph3r
As much as I want to agree with you, I feel like that would just catalyze the rightoids towards violence even more.
Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 11:12 AM
Man I'm getting tired of making this argument. They're already deeply ingrained in their persecution culture. They're already involved in delivering narratives of violence against the left. They're already libeling the left as pedophiles, groomers, etc etc. Being honest about the fact that they deserve to be executed for treason does not give them any fuel to their already out of control fire
11:12 AM
They've got all the fuel they need. They can produce it on the spot. They've been burning bullshit for years
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I'd simply argue, it doesn't help though. 🤷‍♂️
11:13 AM
Worst case scenario, you fire up some extremist into shooting at crowds, worth avoiding I'd think.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 11:13 AM
Sure would be a shame if it happened to them every once in a while wouldn't it
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heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:14 AM
its a danger for those of us trying to stop them. “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster, when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you.”
11:14 AM
after 2 hours of proud boys shouting hatefulness at me I found myself shouting hatefulness back and hating them and its a very real kind of transfer
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thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 11:15 AM
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 11:15 AM
It is not hateful to wish justice on the unjust (edited)
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Doctor Eval
It is not hateful to wish justice on the unjust (edited)
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 11:16 AM
Justice according the U.S. Code. Sedition and conspiracy, as well as insurrection, do not warrant capital punishment per Section 18 of the U.S.C.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 11:17 AM
No, I believe instead it calls for a 20-year sentence, which is tantamount to a life sentence for most of these fucking boomers
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heinz_ketchup
after 2 hours of proud boys shouting hatefulness at me I found myself shouting hatefulness back and hating them and its a very real kind of transfer
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 11:17 AM
Children like the Piss Boys want to get a reaction out of you. They want to find an excuse to shoot you.
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Like I said, everyone has different expectations for justice.
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Doctor Eval
It is not hateful to wish justice on the unjust (edited)
heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:17 AM
Justice is very much needed and warranted. my point is, we have a responsibility to ourselves and our fellow folks to recognize the dangers of what we are trying to do.
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Doctor Eval
No, I believe instead it calls for a 20-year sentence, which is tantamount to a life sentence for most of these fucking boomers
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 11:17 AM
And I'm pissed off that so many of these people are getting less time than people incarcerated for weed possession.
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Doctor Eval 8/5/2022 11:19 AM
Look I know that my opinion is unpopular, I get that you guys disagree. I understand that you're telling me not to become that which I hate. The monster in me demands justice, and will continue to be a monster until it is fed
11:19 AM
Y'all are welcome to be better people
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Doctor Eval
Look I know that my opinion is unpopular, I get that you guys disagree. I understand that you're telling me not to become that which I hate. The monster in me demands justice, and will continue to be a monster until it is fed
thechromatograph3r 8/5/2022 11:20 AM
I neither condone it nor condemn it, although I do understand it.
this 1
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Doctor Eval
Look I know that my opinion is unpopular, I get that you guys disagree. I understand that you're telling me not to become that which I hate. The monster in me demands justice, and will continue to be a monster until it is fed
heinz_ketchup 8/5/2022 11:25 AM
for me it has helped to distinguish between the feeling / impulse and the action. I often have strong feelings about this stuff, try to work it out in VR boxing or whatever, and channel into effective action. its very difficult but worth it in the long term.
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He recently faced a backlash over remarks he made in July, in which he said Hungarians "do not want to become peoples of mixed race."
3:32 PM
"Hungarian leader Viktor Orbán declares at CPAC that "a Christian politician cannot be racist" (edited)
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Doctor Eval
I've been criticized a handful of times for my violent rhetoric. I personally want to see every single January 6th insurrectionist hung in the public square. That's a very unpopular opinion.
AlexanderthePrettyGood 8/5/2022 7:24 PM
I gotta say - you're my kind of stupid
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austinwiltshire 8/7/2022 4:14 PM
I honestly have no problem with people wanting fascists to hang. I do think, while it's good to ensure one doesn't become what one is seeking to destroy, that simply wanting destruction is not itself a bad thing. I think a lot of folks equate being "just" with being "peaceful" and those are the same things and that's why we have two different words for them. I don't hate the proud boys because they're violent. I hate them because they're violent against innocent people for really bigoted reasons. I hate them because of why they do what they do, not what they do alone. Anyway, not sure if this is on topic for the psy ops channel. Just didn't want the "let them hang" crowd feel dog piled 🙂
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WojtektheBear 8/8/2022 9:11 PM
I’m gonna say it the Dark Brandon thing is actually an excellent example of memetic warfare working
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Big, if true.
11:05 PM
I mean the unfortunate reality is that the Dems would never promote a candidate to oppose a sitting Dem president, even if he's the most conservative democrat ever. Only an idiot would break the party like that... which means it's possible. Ultimately, it's either you support Biden at the polls, or you support some fascist like Abbott or DeSantis. Or Trump, assuming Dark Brandon doesn't use his ninjutsu to banish him to the shadow realm. (edited)
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Doctor Eval 8/9/2022 7:03 AM
Accusation in a mirror (AiM), mirror politics, mirror propaganda, mirror image propaganda, or mirror argument is a hate-speech incitement technique. AiM refers to falsely imputing to one's adversaries the intentions that one has for onerself and/or the action that one is in the process of enacting.The term in French, "accusation en miroir", was ...
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Skullmaggot 8/9/2022 1:20 PM
Projection
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heinz_ketchup 8/9/2022 1:32 PM
DARVO = deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender
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WojtektheBear
I’m gonna say it the Dark Brandon thing is actually an excellent example of memetic warfare working
I was concerned about it at first but I agree with you, I like how it’s playing out.
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Struggles
I was concerned about it at first but I agree with you, I like how it’s playing out.
WojtektheBear 8/10/2022 11:55 AM
❤️ 1
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heinz_ketchup
DARVO = deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender
thechromatograph3r 8/10/2022 4:05 PM
I forgot about this term
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Regnion
I mean the unfortunate reality is that the Dems would never promote a candidate to oppose a sitting Dem president, even if he's the most conservative democrat ever. Only an idiot would break the party like that... which means it's possible. Ultimately, it's either you support Biden at the polls, or you support some fascist like Abbott or DeSantis. Or Trump, assuming Dark Brandon doesn't use his ninjutsu to banish him to the shadow realm. (edited)
thechromatograph3r 8/10/2022 4:06 PM
Elevating Biden to a memetic pedestal is akin to what MAGA did to Trump.
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They try to. I only ever see derogatory Trump memes. The Right can't meme worth a damn.
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Regnion
They try to. I only ever see derogatory Trump memes. The Right can't meme worth a damn.
thechromatograph3r 8/10/2022 4:36 PM
I mean, the MAGA movement elevated Trump to a deity-like position. I don't want the left to do the same thing to Boe Jiden.
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Okay.
4:40 PM
I mean, I don't either.
4:43 PM
Make memes that aren't Dark Brandon and hope they catch on, I'm not sure what you want me to do.
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thechromatograph3r 8/10/2022 4:49 PM
At the end of the day, you do you
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I was thinking everyone knew the Dark Brandon memes are sarcastically funny. First off, they use the name Brandon, which is already a slam against the embarrassing lame MAGAs. It is on the same level of ridiculousness of MAGA Rambo Trump, but here's the deal, Jack. The MAGAs Trump memes were sincere
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I'm partial of a one two punch of emasculating GOP and outright calling them weaklings on one end, and then co-oping their memes to basically tell the truth while also taking potshots at GOP
6:57 PM
be mean about it tho
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good they are beginning to fight one another
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I love when they do this shit.
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heinz_ketchup 8/11/2022 10:41 AM
1st law of Alex Jones: most convoluted narrative must be the most correct. It can't possibly be the straightforward truth, that Trump ganked some classified documents and the FBI came after him for it.
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To them it's totally reasonable that the governor of Florida has power over the FBI.
10:53 AM
Needing to feel victimized to some degree is par for the course. (edited)
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thechromatograph3r
I mean, the MAGA movement elevated Trump to a deity-like position. I don't want the left to do the same thing to Boe Jiden.
WojtektheBear 8/11/2022 11:56 AM
Bro it’s ironic lmao
😂 1
11:57 AM
The Left would never do that libs might but at the end of the day it’s a meme
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Regnion
Needing to feel victimized to some degree is par for the course. (edited)
Don't kinkshame their persecution fetish
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Mr.Pebbles
good they are beginning to fight one another
Braakinthesaddle 8/11/2022 8:17 PM
We should push this narrative
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The gracious proposals include placing Donald Trump under the protection of Moscow’s security agency—and moving homeless American children to Russia.
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"send homeless children to Russia" Yeah no, I'm not sending kids to a shithole country.
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Mr.Pebbles
good they are beginning to fight one another
CaulPartBallMop 8/12/2022 7:25 PM
Was literally about to post this here thinking we should spread this
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Braakinthesaddle
We should push this narrative
CaulPartBallMop 8/12/2022 7:27 PM
Can anybody with Photoshop do a bullshit boomer meme pushing it?
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CaulPartBallMop
Can anybody with Photoshop do a bullshit boomer meme pushing it?
Braakinthesaddle 8/12/2022 7:35 PM
Ask #graphic-designers
7:36 PM
I'm not a design-talented person or I'd do it
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CaulPartBallMop 8/12/2022 7:36 PM
Same my computer is in my closet rn lol
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Idk, I think I'd feel gross engaging in misinformation
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cancel culture club 8/12/2022 7:43 PM
I made a sub to hopefully maybe fight back against QAnon/christofascist culture shit! https://www.reddit.com/r/Qulture_Wars/ No idea what I’m doing -including even just having mod powers- but I’ve been restless to do something for awhile now and maybe it could actually help. 🤷🏻‍♀️
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Skullmaggot 8/13/2022 1:21 AM
Who wants to get on video propaganda?
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Are we sure calling it propaganda is a good idea
1:26 PM
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austinwiltshire 8/13/2022 2:43 PM
Jason Stanley, who wrote how propaganda works, is one of the folks saying it's okay.
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Propaganda is not necessarily evil.
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2:58 PM
The word is often used in a derogatory fashion, which is why the definition says "especially of a biased or misleading nature." (edited)
2:59 PM
Iron Front propaganda is biased, in favor of democracy, equal rights, opposing fascism, etc.
2:59 PM
It is not unbiased, "all opinions should be heard" stuff.
3:00 PM
This is propaganda. As much as we like it, the fascists hate stuff like this. Instead of being misleading ours can be inherently good.
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RedMoonWarrior 8/13/2022 3:00 PM
Propaganda is media that pushes a message. Our's is just a good one.
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I'm not saying propaganda is inherently bad, it does all depend on the message. But I'm just saying maybe it's best we don't call it that (publicly at least) because of the connotation of the word.
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Sure, can literally call it anything else. My example is poster, call it a poster. No need to say it's a propaganda poster.
3:34 PM
Best to be wary of the court of public perception (edited)
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Skullmaggot 8/13/2022 5:43 PM
True
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Skullmaggot 8/14/2022 1:38 AM
Oh, but did anybody want to help brainstorm video ideas in #filmmakers ? (edited)
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JohnBrosGhost 8/14/2022 7:23 PM
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if this type of info was spread (edited)
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7:24 PM
Like if someone made alt accounts. Posted this shit on twitter with Q/RW hashtags and make it catch fire (edited)
7:24 PM
#BoycottFakeElections or some dumb shit
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JohnBrosGhost
Like if someone made alt accounts. Posted this shit on twitter with Q/RW hashtags and make it catch fire (edited)
WojtektheBear 8/14/2022 8:27 PM
My only qualm is it backfiring massively were anyone to realize
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Regnion
Propaganda is not necessarily evil.
thechromatograph3r 8/15/2022 9:45 PM
I say we call it, “counter-propaganda.”
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JohnBrosGhost
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if this type of info was spread (edited)
thechromatograph3r 8/15/2022 9:45 PM
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Braakinthesaddle 8/16/2022 7:54 PM
LOL Matt Gaetz Republican opponent is claiming Gaetz is the informant against Trump 🍿
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Skullmaggot 9/7/2022 5:33 PM
Just something I encountered today.
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/10/2022 11:45 PM
Is there a list of the dominant fascist organizations that are active? Could it be possible to compile a list of them, as well as their ideology, narrative, motivations and end goals in order to tailor propaganda to directly oppose or counter their beliefs?
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/11/2022 1:31 AM
@heinz_ketchup narrowing down to the most active ones might be best. I don’t know if we’ll have the most luck against the GOP for example, but we might be able to work against the smaller ones
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/11/2022 1:44 AM
I’ve got NSC-13, Patriot Front, Proud Boys, and a few smaller ones
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
thechromatograph3r 9/12/2022 1:03 PM
Oh, lovely. "Iron Youth..." sounds a lot like "Iron Front." Inb4 we get misreported in MSM as a right-wing hate group.
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LessthanLoneWolf
Is there a list of the dominant fascist organizations that are active? Could it be possible to compile a list of them, as well as their ideology, narrative, motivations and end goals in order to tailor propaganda to directly oppose or counter their beliefs?
Skullmaggot 9/12/2022 3:45 PM
Subscribe to the https://soundslikehate.org/">Sounds Like Hate podcast to learn more about hate groups like the Proud Boys.​
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joe hill’s revenge 9/28/2022 11:11 PM
@thedudewhoknocks @Skullmaggot suggested that this would be a good place to discuss written propaganda. Yeah! I think that we have to be able to come up with not only images but arguments. We’ve been focusing on the graphics, but written propaganda is the other half of it. I’m not sure if we need to persuade fascists; but We have to offer an alternative narrative
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/29/2022 2:22 AM
@joe hill’s revenge definitely. We need to counter their lies
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/29/2022 7:28 PM
Question; how do we distinguish “communism” from “authoritarian communism” for the average American? I know the original IF was anti-communist, but how can we separate the two, if we can?
7:29 PM
Hate to say it, but any hint of pro-communism will immediately turn off a lot to our message due to the association with it. Is there another word we can call it?
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/29/2022 8:38 PM
I put together a few flyers to counter fascist messages. Let me know what you think.
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I've looked at them and I like em. Especially the hate has no home here one. These fascists love using the Bible so smack them with what it actually says
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LessthanLoneWolf 9/29/2022 8:43 PM
@archon exactly! Or, let them try to say how the Bible is wrong; I'd love to use that argument against them!
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Agreed, go for it.
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joe hill’s revenge 9/29/2022 9:41 PM
@thedudewhoknocks
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thedudewhoknocks 9/29/2022 9:41 PM
thx
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LessthanLoneWolf
Question; how do we distinguish “communism” from “authoritarian communism” for the average American? I know the original IF was anti-communist, but how can we separate the two, if we can?
suspiciously_suspicious 9/30/2022 8:43 AM
You can make up as many words for it as you like - electoral communism, Democratic Communism, Anarcho Leftism, Egalitarianism, Democratic Leftism, Worker's Socialism, etc. But the crux of it is is that Iron Front is Anti-Authoritarian and Pro-Democracy. We could say we are anti-Stalinist rather than pro-communist, since people who are familiar with the finer aspects of communism would know more about Stalinism than a typical non-communist.
8:45 AM
This would leave a problem that many laymen would still believe we are broadly anti-communist, so there would need to be an effort to communicate the differences between Stalinism versus non-authoritarian communism.
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IvanAlbright 9/30/2022 1:02 PM
Stalinism is too specific
1:03 PM
Authoritarian communism/socialism is broader and better encapsulates it, I think.
1:04 PM
Although, I would suspect there is a fair amount of people that wouldn't consider themselves "pro-authoritarianism" but do in fact support authoritarian methods and ideas
1:04 PM
Also there are communists/socialists out there that support the idea of using violence to achieve their aims
1:04 PM
Even if their end game is not authoritarian in their eyes
1:05 PM
Supporting a violent revolution in not out MO
1:07 PM
I've seen Marxist-Leninist used to encapsulate it. But I think in modern usage, just calling them "tankies" suffices
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suspiciously_suspicious 9/30/2022 1:08 PM
Then leave it at "authoritarian communism," and just be ready to explain communism vs authoritarian communism if someone asks, or pointing out that there is non-authoritarian communism if people start painting them all with the same brush.
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IvanAlbright 9/30/2022 1:09 PM
Yeah socialism should be included too. Authoritarian communism/socialism
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suspiciously_suspicious 9/30/2022 1:09 PM
Tankie would work for a portion of the population, and for those familiar with the term I think it really captures the intention quite well
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IvanAlbright 9/30/2022 1:09 PM
Yeah I agree
1:09 PM
Most of us know what that implies
1:10 PM
Authoritarianism is the best term because it captures everything. Including religion, which is very necessary in these times
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suspiciously_suspicious 9/30/2022 1:10 PM
To reach a wider audience, we would just need to be able to explain that it generally denotes someone who favors authoritarian communism/socialism
1:10 PM
Definitely
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IvanAlbright 9/30/2022 1:11 PM
Yeah
1:11 PM
It's important
1:11 PM
I know we've been debating this topic a lot on the reddit sub
1:11 PM
There's a lot of misunderstanding and for good reason
1:11 PM
On both sides of the debate
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/2/2022 3:10 AM
Another piece of propaganda, aimed directly at Patriot Front. Right from their own manifesto.
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I approve. Smack them with their own words
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/2/2022 3:12 AM
Had the thought, couldn’t get to sleep until I made a flyer. I will be posting a few today in the AM
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LessthanLoneWolf
Another piece of propaganda, aimed directly at Patriot Front. Right from their own manifesto.
suspiciously_suspicious 10/2/2022 8:45 AM
As a recommendation, perhaps change the top where it says "American Iron Front" to "From the Patriot Front Manifesto:", and then put "American Iron Front" after "Patriot Front is not Welcome Here!"
8:46 AM
The reason being is that with "American Iron Front" at the top it might confuse a casual observer that does not read the whole thing that this is a statement from Iron Front instead of Patriot Front
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/2/2022 8:48 AM
@suspiciously_suspicious good idea
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suspiciously_suspicious 10/2/2022 8:51 AM
Something like this (apologies if the formatting is screwy, I use open document so sometimes the formatting gets messed up going between different word programs)
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/2/2022 8:57 AM
@suspiciously_suspicious I like that much better! And you’re right, I don’t want people confusing us with that filth
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/3/2022 3:02 AM
I'm planning to hang this in conservative areas around me. We aren't going to get the locals to changed their ideas, but maybe we can convince them to not go far right.
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That's probably our best bet
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/3/2022 3:33 AM
I figured.
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I really wish I could do more, but I'm not in the position to. The least I can do is give suggestions. Sorry....
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LessthanLoneWolf
Another piece of propaganda, aimed directly at Patriot Front. Right from their own manifesto.
Unu51, Syndicalizer of Anarchy 10/3/2022 3:47 AM
Is it possible to get something like this but for the Oath Keepers? I live in California and that state's loaded with those loons according to the data leak.
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/3/2022 3:52 AM
@archon no worries. Advice is valuable
3:52 AM
@Unu51, Syndicalizer of Anarchy I don’t see why not
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LessthanLoneWolf
@archon no worries. Advice is valuable
Thanks
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Skullmaggot
thechromatograph3r 10/3/2022 11:17 AM
Are there not links from the map to the groups?
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thechromatograph3r
Are there not links from the map to the groups?
Skullmaggot 10/4/2022 6:34 PM
I haven’t figured out how to navigate it myself…so maybe RedMoonWarrior knows?
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/12/2022 11:58 PM
I’ve read and taken notes on “Anatomy of Fascism,” and think I’m making progress for social media education. I’ve divided the notes into the following sections; What is fascism? Where does it come from and what does it need to start? How it grows How it takes power What does it look like and what do fascists do? How it can happen here I’ve got one more book to go through and take notes on, then I can put them together for a comprehensive look at fascism
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joe hill’s revenge 10/13/2022 4:51 PM
I think that we should adopt some Econ ideology/policy, cause fascism is driven by economic crisis and instability
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/13/2022 4:53 PM
@joe hill’s revenge supporting unions is a great place to start.
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LessthanLoneWolf
@joe hill’s revenge supporting unions is a great place to start.
WojtektheBear 10/14/2022 12:04 PM
It’s easier than us taking specific economic stances in my opinion. I understand how it’s intertwined with the political but at the same time we’re here to counter the fash, not necessarily a Green New Deal as much as I’d like it
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JohnBrosGhost 10/17/2022 1:07 PM
Kanye just bought Parler, so those of you who have accounts to monitor might want to watch a bit closer, I imagine the press will create an influx of new users and re-engage prior users
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Black Magic 10/19/2022 2:00 AM
Unions are critical to the fash bash
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/19/2022 5:05 AM
@Black Magic unions are super critical
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Problem is unions are also super prone to have fash infiltrate them. But agreed
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Aces high
Problem is unions are also super prone to have fash infiltrate them. But agreed
joe hill’s revenge 10/25/2022 5:02 PM
No they aren’t ?
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Maybe not where you live, but I know there are cases of Unions in PA and Ohio being pretty right winged aside from basic workers rights
5:07 PM
Like keep voting republican despite evidence to the contrary
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joe hill’s revenge
No they aren’t ?
AldotheApache 11/3/2022 7:31 PM
I would concur with @Aces high as someone who works with and in organized labor. Many of the building trades and many others have members in rural areas that are just as susceptible to right wing and alt right messages. If they do endorsements or money independent of the AFLCIO, which many do, they very well could support denier or Trump candidates. Members make those votes.
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We all need to get together and discuss the construction of a bot/sock account network. That'll be key to any social media psyop. We then also need to develop a sort of command structure so we can keep the web of lies/operations in line and consistent. If a network is created we'll need to designate keepers of the network/accounts. As well as a system for approving ops on a democratic basis as there are ethical conundrums afoot if we proceed with these sort of actions
8:45 PM
Those in the know about ops and how they're organized should also be limited as much as possible and once we're more established, private chat rooms on the server should be made so sensitive info can be discussed (edited)
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8:51 PM
Also Tik tok would be a great platform to use to spread agitprop/infighting amongst conservatives as we previously discussed in #chaos-monkeys
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LessthanLoneWolf 11/3/2022 10:25 PM
@Alexx sounds like a good idea
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yes yes, it's also vital that we don't push any mis-information when doing this. We want to cause infighting without compromising the publics trust in the media/information (unlike our counterparts)
10:50 PM
the second we push any mis-info it's legally terr*rism
10:51 PM
so let's not haha
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LessthanLoneWolf 11/4/2022 12:34 AM
Misinformation= terrorism? How’s that?
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Alexx
the second we push any mis-info it's legally terr*rism
that doesn't follow
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recent DoD orders in the last 6-12 months says any foreign or domestic online subversive activities that entail misinfo can be investigated as domestic terror bc you're attacking infrastructure to a degree. Not that you'd be charged with anything but the feds are buckling down on that or attempting to. Either way it's no big deal, as I wasn't planning on using any misinfo it's just important to mention for something like this. I can get links later but as of rn I'm a little pre-occupied
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LessthanLoneWolf 11/4/2022 1:17 AM
@Alexx huh. Didn’t know that. But can see it being used against us, depending on who wins in a few days
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JohnBrosGhost 11/4/2022 1:40 PM
Ramses Ja and Quinton Ward, hosts of the radio show Civic Cipher, now own the trademark "White Lives Matter," so the phrase can't be used to sell merchandise.
1:41 PM
Yo, can we just form an LLC to trademark all of the hate phrases out there to prevent racists, transphobes, etc from using them?
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That might be possible. Not sure if we have the resources for it thought
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JohnBrosGhost 11/4/2022 2:03 PM
a friend of mine is an Intellectual Property attorney. Going to ask him next time i see him. Could be a fun project.
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Very good idea. We also need to make sure this is actually legal
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Alexx
yes yes, it's also vital that we don't push any mis-information when doing this. We want to cause infighting without compromising the publics trust in the media/information (unlike our counterparts)
joe hill’s revenge 11/4/2022 5:47 PM
I think that before we do offensive not stuff, we should use bots to build up our org
5:47 PM
That’s lower risk abd can develop skills
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5:49 PM
We can do what you said “fake threads” with bot accounts following eachother but to promote aif instead of dividing the ops
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joe hill’s revenge
I think that before we do offensive not stuff, we should use bots to build up our org
And that's why we need to all pick a day and time to discuss what we wanna do because I think we all got some good stuff to offer and proceeding without us all talking is gonna result in a disorganized effort that gets nothing done
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Alexx
And that's why we need to all pick a day and time to discuss what we wanna do because I think we all got some good stuff to offer and proceeding without us all talking is gonna result in a disorganized effort that gets nothing done
joe hill’s revenge 11/4/2022 8:28 PM
We have meetings twice a month on sundays
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ok bet bet
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AldotheApache
I would concur with @Aces high as someone who works with and in organized labor. Many of the building trades and many others have members in rural areas that are just as susceptible to right wing and alt right messages. If they do endorsements or money independent of the AFLCIO, which many do, they very well could support denier or Trump candidates. Members make those votes.
It’s gop country in much of the well compensated organized working class. Oh yeah. One good union I was in had about 1/4 the dozen workers, the top of the ladder good ol boys, being vocal “conservative” performers on our headsets. Talk talk talk about what was on tv today 😒. I didn’t “fly the flag” right and was hated right. Probably helped me firm up my left track. Patriotism & without actual human solidarity is just putrid, performative, wasteful, sig heil shit to me. No, I don’t want your 9-11 flag sticker.
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I got a long post, but it's kind of ramble-y. I woke up recently, so I'm not as coherent as I'd like to be but lemme send it anyways. Discord has character limits so I'm gonna keep writing after I send the first thing. .
11:10 AM
I have no clue if this belongs in #researchers or #general-chat or what, but this is a reply to something written in #streetlamp-make-over about the alt-right "pipelines." I was on the "pipeline" years ago, 2015-18ish. Talked to a lot of different people across the entire right-wing from neoconservatives to Trumpers to libertarians to anarcho-capitalists to fascists to neo-Nazis to Catholic ultra-traditionalists. I got into civic nationalist and even ethnic preservationist type beliefs, but I could never bring myself to support any kind of direct racism or racial supremacy or anything of the sort no matter what I read. I got to points where I was like "maybe Jews do have a disproportionate role in certain things, but there's no reason to blame this on them being Jewish or to blame regular Jews for what elites do," so while I still fell for some of their propaganda, I was still totally unconvinced of certain other things that they wanted to make me believe in. Unfortunately, most of the people I talked to in these servers and forums had no nuance and just kept going deeper into this shit without any rational thinking or skepticism. It's hard to get these people to change or to stop going down the path, but it's possible for some. And I have decent points and counterarguments that can be useful against certain positions, especially the more "logical" sounding ones that get people started on these lines. For example, ethnic preservation is a big starting point for many. The concept is simple and it is often used by leftists and others to defend minorities who face forced assimilation and other things, so the rightists try to use it to justify measures that infringe upon the rights of ethnic minorities and mixed race couples and such to "preserve White/European identity." Now, a good argument is that the people they are talking about preserving are the result of millennia of mixing and conquering and absorbing. (edited)
11:14 AM
Most White Americans, such as myself, are a mix of different ethnicities. And these ethnicities arose over centuries from the remnants of other ethnicities. The Celtic people used to stretch across Europe. Across France, Germany and even into Turkey. Today, they only have Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, Brittany and some islands. But the blood and the culture of the Celts who once lived in continental Europe lives on as a component in the blood and cultures of the ethnicities who succeeded them. Where are the Etruscans? They're absorbed into the Italians. What happened to the Baltic Prussians? They became parts of the Polish, Lithuanian and Latvian nations over time. And the Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians? They mixed and merged and evolved to become modern-day Albanians, Croatians, Romanians and such. Hell, even the Hungarians, Finns and Estonians came from Asia a thousand years ago and mixed and merged with other peoples to become the peoples that they are today. So, the simple argument is that it is perfectly natural and normal for groups to change over time. It is nothing for these people to hate or fear. People groups rarely truly "die out" completely. I likely have the blood of a dozen different "extinct" ethnicities in my veins right now, and my language and culture has elements of theirs kept in tact. (edited)
11:16 AM
Of course people will still hate and fear it anyways, but if you can use arguments like these effectively and in a good way, it can change some minds and keep people off the radical path and put them onto more rational ones, ones backed up by history and science.
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11:18 AM
Hating and fearing these kinds of changes are a psychological phenomenon
11:18 AM
a universal one
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knuckles
I have no clue if this belongs in #researchers or #general-chat or what, but this is a reply to something written in #streetlamp-make-over about the alt-right "pipelines." I was on the "pipeline" years ago, 2015-18ish. Talked to a lot of different people across the entire right-wing from neoconservatives to Trumpers to libertarians to anarcho-capitalists to fascists to neo-Nazis to Catholic ultra-traditionalists. I got into civic nationalist and even ethnic preservationist type beliefs, but I could never bring myself to support any kind of direct racism or racial supremacy or anything of the sort no matter what I read. I got to points where I was like "maybe Jews do have a disproportionate role in certain things, but there's no reason to blame this on them being Jewish or to blame regular Jews for what elites do," so while I still fell for some of their propaganda, I was still totally unconvinced of certain other things that they wanted to make me believe in. Unfortunately, most of the people I talked to in these servers and forums had no nuance and just kept going deeper into this shit without any rational thinking or skepticism. It's hard to get these people to change or to stop going down the path, but it's possible for some. And I have decent points and counterarguments that can be useful against certain positions, especially the more "logical" sounding ones that get people started on these lines. For example, ethnic preservation is a big starting point for many. The concept is simple and it is often used by leftists and others to defend minorities who face forced assimilation and other things, so the rightists try to use it to justify measures that infringe upon the rights of ethnic minorities and mixed race couples and such to "preserve White/European identity." Now, a good argument is that the people they are talking about preserving are the result of millennia of mixing and conquering and absorbing. (edited)
And a lot of people on the "pipeline," both people disillusioned by the Nazi radicals and people who were the Nazi radicals, had turned to religion. I had already turned to religion, so I was already there. This was the final stop for many people who started on the "alt-right" pipeline back in the day. Some became Catholic traditionalists, some Catholic Sedevacantists even, some became radical fundamentalist Baptists and such. Some turned to Orthodoxy. Some became Jehovah's Witnesses. I always remained non-denominational, unsure of which one was the true one, but I leaned towards the JWs and Messianic Jews and such. Some people became more radicalized, some people became deradicalized, others just became a different form of radical. It was a wacky thing now that I think about it. I left most of those circles except for a Messianic one by like 2020, but many of the servers and such died out. (edited)
11:29 AM
Hopefully I can provide insight into these different people and groups and figure out how to effectively deradicalize them or keep them on the fringes
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11:29 AM
Many were disillusioned with politics and wanted to focus solely on religion and self-improvement. This effectively kept them away from true politics and therefore made them less of a threat than the others (edited)
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AldotheApache 11/27/2022 8:48 AM
@knuckles for some reason people forget that you don’t need the State to enforce keeping your culture and traditions alive. It’s a choice people make whether they want to observe certain holidays or participate in certain practices. If you want your children to do the same then you have to expose them to those tradition. And doing so doesn’t and shouldn’t be in an exclusive sense to other cultures or traditions. They way I frame it is that capitalism is commodifying all of our cultures and traditions at the end of the day so we are all equally under attack and should therefore support each other in each others cultures and traditions. The only way we have survived is by making judgements whether conscious or unconscious about our traditions and culture to adapt to survive. Our diversity is our strength.
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They believe that not having the State enforce these things will only lead to their collapse
11:20 AM
They believe that education and propaganda is not enough to keep these things alive
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The only thing that modifies existing cultural practices/beliefs is people coming to the understanding that a different way is better, and even that takes time, more importantly it cannot be educated without those people being shown first hand how it's better. And even then it will take generations to become mainstream within a culture.
2:22 PM
So people wishing for cultural changes or standards be enforced or modified by state force are just deluding themselves into believing that will shortcut the process. More often than not radical changes to cultural practices enforced by a state apparatus are rebelled against. (either through outright rebellion, or as in USSR the development of a black market to get around the rules).
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Lord B00F II 12/6/2022 12:03 AM
www.defendkidstx.com
12:04 AM
This is a site that conservatives use to report drag shows and LGBT events to possibly right wing militias. Do what we can to crash this site. If anything spam it with garbage and false reports.
12:06 AM
Also let's get some info on the site founder. See if we can get her info and add her to a bunch of shit like porn magazine subscriptions spammed to her house mailbox.
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I would love to know who is behind this because that tells us who this information is being fed to. (edited)
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Organize a big queer outdoors event, but set up pickets and monitor the yokels trying to interfere. There should be a convincing spectacle at the site, but the road in should be closed when the nutters arrive, and the real show is the haunted house set up in the woods all around. Make it like Blair Witch Trial with a whole lot of trail cams, but live on the net.
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1uc2
Organize a big queer outdoors event, but set up pickets and monitor the yokels trying to interfere. There should be a convincing spectacle at the site, but the road in should be closed when the nutters arrive, and the real show is the haunted house set up in the woods all around. Make it like Blair Witch Trial with a whole lot of trail cams, but live on the net.
If by Haunted House you mean live ammo ambush I'm all for it.
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Whatever fills their underpants...
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I'll get the shovels
8:09 PM
we need ditches
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Advertise drag shows everywhere with nothing actually planned. They’ll get tired of showing up for nothing. 🤣
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That might actually be a good idea, flood their report networks with sham reports
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archon
That might actually be a good idea, flood their report networks with sham reports
Pick random nightclubs, just so it'll show as a venue on google search.
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Yea, maybe even a few of their own
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Build a list of addresses, throw in a date for each, and share here. 😉
12:35 AM
Maybe someone can build a bot that can handle stuff like this.
12:35 AM
Rightwingers are doing it... might as well.
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I wish I could, but I suck at complicated programing
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So we share the list with the IT guys here.
12:51 AM
It isn't about what one of us can do on our own. It's what we can do together to stop fascism.
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Yeah. I'll do what I can but we should get others in on this
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I think it would be hilarious if large numbers of people dressed up as Pittsburgh Steelers fans and showed up to PB events. Waving the terrible towels and cheering loudly for the Steelers. Record the trolling up close to humiliate them online with their predictably unhinged responses
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LessthanLoneWolf 12/8/2022 9:24 AM
@Steve Mike if we can find their events let’s do it!
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Steve Mike
I think it would be hilarious if large numbers of people dressed up as Pittsburgh Steelers fans and showed up to PB events. Waving the terrible towels and cheering loudly for the Steelers. Record the trolling up close to humiliate them online with their predictably unhinged responses
Ohh I like that.
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Haha right? Imagine a crowd of 10 proud boys being swallowed up and surrounded by 30 steelers fans
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And no, I do not secretly work for the Pittsburgh Steelers organization, although I'm sure they would be in support of this idea 🤑
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Steve Mike
And no, I do not secretly work for the Pittsburgh Steelers organization, although I'm sure they would be in support of this idea 🤑
Maybe maybe not. It'd be nice if I could find any indication the Rooney family wasn't just corpo-fascists.
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True. I was just viewing it from the sale of merchandise and advertising of the brand. Chances are being a pro football team they are some degree of right wing
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Steve Mike
True. I was just viewing it from the sale of merchandise and advertising of the brand. Chances are being a pro football team they are some degree of right wing
Hard to tell, they were an impoverished Irish Famine family who got their money by working up to owning a bar near Pirate stadium... which of course made them a tidy profit... And with that profit the franchise from the NFL was purchased for 2500 bucks.
12:27 PM
In 33' 2500 was a bunch of money but it wasn't oligarch money.
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socialists are the real silent majority
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JohnBrosGhost 1/5/2023 7:14 PM
This is such a perfect time to get #GOPSplit trending on twitter
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7:14 PM
11 votes and no holdouts have crossed over to McCarthy.
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JohnBrosGhost
This is such a perfect time to get #GOPSplit trending on twitter
To what effect?
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Amplify the division already existing in the party. It's already being torn apart by it's GQP members and TV talking heads.
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Spinner
Amplify the division already existing in the party. It's already being torn apart by it's GQP members and TV talking heads.
You say "torn apart", but I think I'd prefer to use the term metamorphizing. Torn apart gives a certain connotation that I don't feel is accurate; It gives the impression that they're becoming weaker, or fracturing in some fundamental way. I don't think that's the case at all. And nothing would make Rs feel more inclined to present a united front than seeing themselves mocked by libtards via a hashtag on Twitter. They are, more than anything else, tribal. Me? If I wanted to stoke division, I'd try to get a hashtag trending that championed the holdouts as patriots. Paint them as the only Americans willing to stand up to The System, and garner them so much faux positive attention that their eventual capitulation leaves them looking like sellouts. Because they will capitulate. As I write this McCarthy has gained a dozen votes.
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Mihr
You say "torn apart", but I think I'd prefer to use the term metamorphizing. Torn apart gives a certain connotation that I don't feel is accurate; It gives the impression that they're becoming weaker, or fracturing in some fundamental way. I don't think that's the case at all. And nothing would make Rs feel more inclined to present a united front than seeing themselves mocked by libtards via a hashtag on Twitter. They are, more than anything else, tribal. Me? If I wanted to stoke division, I'd try to get a hashtag trending that championed the holdouts as patriots. Paint them as the only Americans willing to stand up to The System, and garner them so much faux positive attention that their eventual capitulation leaves them looking like sellouts. Because they will capitulate. As I write this McCarthy has gained a dozen votes.
I half joked elsewhere that a good psyop would be to get #J62.0 trending.
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Spinner
I half joked elsewhere that a good psyop would be to get #J62.0 trending.
I don't like that either. This is a moot point, as KM appears to have the votes or will soon. But let's say this was a prolonged crisis, and we wanted to be Chaos Monkeys. We want to harm the GOP, or at least make them look bad. #GOPSplit isn't going to do it. #J62.0 won't either. Both of these are out-group narratives that paint the holdouts as ineffectual agents of governance more concerned about grandstanding or insurrectionists not fit to be in Congress, respectively. Now, yes: They are both of these things in truth. But we're not trying to attack them here directly nor are we trying to weaponize truth. That just activates [R] Tribal Defense Mechanisms. No. It seems to me that if we were trying to make the GOP look bad, the goal would be to engender narratives that give the holdouts reason to continue standing their ground and, subsequently, to give conservatives reason to believe that these Congressmen (and only these Congressmen) were true patriots and Republicans for doing so. The longer the crisis continued, the more ire the mainstream GOP would garner from MAGAs. We can see a brief preview of this already in r/conservative and far right Twitter, which is replete with memes calling "the 20" the only true conservatives, and analogizing them as Spartans holding a line. If your enemy is going to play with fire, toss some wood on the pyre. Let them create as much chaos as they can while Democrats sit back with their 212 calm and orderly votes for Jeffries, and with the memory of a working Congress under Pelosi fresh in mind. This is (was...) a rare opportunity for the harm that Republicans create via their proximity to power to be made visible, and extrinsically linked directly to them exclusively. If I ran a propaganda outfit, I'd try to stoke that fire until the roof was aflame by supporting the holdouts as indirectly as possible.
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Arguably that IS what's going on
3:58 PM
like
3:58 PM
organically
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/6/2023 3:58 PM
You should run a propaganda outfit then. Sounds like you’ve got some good ideas.
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second
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Mihr
I don't like that either. This is a moot point, as KM appears to have the votes or will soon. But let's say this was a prolonged crisis, and we wanted to be Chaos Monkeys. We want to harm the GOP, or at least make them look bad. #GOPSplit isn't going to do it. #J62.0 won't either. Both of these are out-group narratives that paint the holdouts as ineffectual agents of governance more concerned about grandstanding or insurrectionists not fit to be in Congress, respectively. Now, yes: They are both of these things in truth. But we're not trying to attack them here directly nor are we trying to weaponize truth. That just activates [R] Tribal Defense Mechanisms. No. It seems to me that if we were trying to make the GOP look bad, the goal would be to engender narratives that give the holdouts reason to continue standing their ground and, subsequently, to give conservatives reason to believe that these Congressmen (and only these Congressmen) were true patriots and Republicans for doing so. The longer the crisis continued, the more ire the mainstream GOP would garner from MAGAs. We can see a brief preview of this already in r/conservative and far right Twitter, which is replete with memes calling "the 20" the only true conservatives, and analogizing them as Spartans holding a line. If your enemy is going to play with fire, toss some wood on the pyre. Let them create as much chaos as they can while Democrats sit back with their 212 calm and orderly votes for Jeffries, and with the memory of a working Congress under Pelosi fresh in mind. This is (was...) a rare opportunity for the harm that Republicans create via their proximity to power to be made visible, and extrinsically linked directly to them exclusively. If I ran a propaganda outfit, I'd try to stoke that fire until the roof was aflame by supporting the holdouts as indirectly as possible.
I acknowledge the value of your points, I think you'd make an excellent member of an active propaganda team.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/6/2023 4:00 PM
The lovely thing about heavy decentralization is that the only person who needs to give you permission is yourself.
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Aces high
organically
True. House Dems could have vacated and allowed the GOP to handle this vote exclusively. They've absolutely allowed this situation to marinate in a manner that has been perfectly passively aggressive. My ideas tend towards accelerationism and active subversion, which aren't really palatable for many.
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Mihr
True. House Dems could have vacated and allowed the GOP to handle this vote exclusively. They've absolutely allowed this situation to marinate in a manner that has been perfectly passively aggressive. My ideas tend towards accelerationism and active subversion, which aren't really palatable for many.
There are far less palatable variations of accelerationism.
4:16 PM
It's a fine line to tread particularly if you aren't 100% sure of the reaction. Intended consequence of this type of psyop... fragmentation of the GOP. Unintended possible consequence... GQP loses hope for political control and decides to escalate to physical violence on a more overt and active level. (edited)
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joe hill’s revenge 1/11/2023 3:08 PM
What do you guys think of setting up a dummy fascist group? Just the bare minimum of making a telegram, ugly websites and using it to catch fascists
3:08 PM
And do black propaganda
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/11/2023 6:57 PM
We’d need someone who’s skilled in faking stuff
6:57 PM
I’m too good of a liar for my own good, but I’m too busy to do that right now.
6:58 PM
Perhaps when I graduate I could start something like that up.
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joe hill’s revenge
What do you guys think of setting up a dummy fascist group? Just the bare minimum of making a telegram, ugly websites and using it to catch fascists
To what end? Catch them doing what?
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/11/2023 7:04 PM
Good point
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Mihr
To what end? Catch them doing what?
joe hill’s revenge 1/11/2023 7:08 PM
Just trying to join and we could use it to make the fascists look bad by making bad propaganda
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/11/2023 7:10 PM
that would actually be great
7:11 PM
distribute incredibly on the nose things
7:11 PM
especially if we tie it back to a real active organization like white lives matter
7:11 PM
we could do such blatant things that people wouldn’t even listen, they’d just be horrified
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joe hill’s revenge
Just trying to join and we could use it to make the fascists look bad by making bad propaganda
Elaborate?
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Mihr
Elaborate?
joe hill’s revenge 1/11/2023 7:21 PM
What floppunism said
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joe hill’s revenge
What floppunism said
AvoidOblivion 1/11/2023 7:26 PM
Make content that people not in-the-know could post to r/selfawarewolves or r/TheRightCantMeme?
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joe hill’s revenge
What floppunism said
So... a delegitimization campaign, in which propaganda is created that weaponizes and/or exaggerates fascist talking points in order to provoke a negative reaction from the general public. Is that a good overview?
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Mihr
So... a delegitimization campaign, in which propaganda is created that weaponizes and/or exaggerates fascist talking points in order to provoke a negative reaction from the general public. Is that a good overview?
joe hill’s revenge 1/11/2023 7:42 PM
Yea, and a way to create plausible deniability for infiltrating fascist online spaces
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Do me a favor and read the US Army/Marine Corps Counter Insurgency manual first. Also given that we don't have the "go ahead" from the feds, it can lead to a really awkward conversation with a Fed real quick.
7:44 PM
Which could lead to conspiracy charges.
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joe hill’s revenge
Yea, and a way to create plausible deniability for infiltrating fascist online spaces
I don't think this would have the effect you want, if your goal is to alienate fascists.
7:45 PM
What Spinner said, as well.
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joe hill’s revenge 1/11/2023 7:48 PM
Why
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Sure. Give me a second to lay out my opinion on this.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/11/2023 7:57 PM
Yeah, always look around for army manuals
7:57 PM
They’re on many things and EXTENSIVE
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And most are declassed if they are not dealing with specific weapon systems.
8:01 PM
COINTELPRO manual, and US Army Interrogation manual are particularly appropriate to know backwards and forwards.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/11/2023 8:28 PM
Yeah. You will find a lot of incredibly useful stuff out there you’d never expect to be public (edited)
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joe hill’s revenge
Why
Getting back to this: If you want to post "look at these people being bad" stuff to Reddit, per flop’s interpretation of this idea, you could just totally make up stuff. No need to actually infiltrate any groups. You are already operating outside of Truth if your intention was to join a fash channel and pretend to be them to say Bad Things. Propaganda doesn’t need to be true to be effective, afterall, it just needs to be believable. But I think the real question here is whether r/selfawarewolves or r/TheRightCantMeme or r/NazisAreBadDontchaKnow are effective or helpful avenues at all. I would argue that these spaces are figurative flytraps where people waste time and emotional energy on nonactionable ragebait while inadvertently signal boosting the far right (and allowing them to triangulate their behavior based on levels of immune response from their target demo). And honestly? I do not think you could say anything as a sockpuppet more damning than the conversations that already happen within extreme right spaces, unless you veer into actual criminality. And that isn’t viable or safe, as Spinner points out. edit: wording. (edited)
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The biggest reason I can think of to set up fake fash groups is so that you can vet people strictly in order to dox them
2:30 PM
and that seems like a fine approach but also one that'll burn itself out really quick
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Ok. On the surface I can see how that seems like a good idea. I don't think it is, though. You aren't going to nab anyone who is actually a threat, because those individuals are already ensconced deeply in their far right communities and know the importance of not doxxing themselves. And the things you would have to do to convince them you're legit would put yourself at risk, to boot.
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joe hill’s revenge 1/13/2023 3:00 PM
Yr right
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But getting back to the idea of creating "content" for Reddit: Can I proffer the idea that many ostensibly anti-fascist and anti-farright subs have quietly been subverted and repurposed to promote right wing villains of the hour? Perfect example being Rittenhouse. A month and a half ago, r/whitepeopletwitter and every other subreddit regularly critical of the GOP were replete with posts attacking him. Every time he sneezed, there was a post denouncing him. Every tweet, every comment, it was all over Reddit, thousands of angry comments calling him a murderer and a terrorist and so on. But here's the thing: A number of the users who were creating these posts were either bots or conservative provocateurs. Thanks to them there was more attention spent on Rittenhouse tweeting and being obnoxious than Maxwell Frost's House race and his becoming the first Gen Z congressman. And that dynamic continues to play out still. Anger and outrage is being purposefully used by the far right to hijack the attention of Reddit users disgusted with and continuously upset by the GOP, the same way anger and outrage is utilized by Fox to manipulate and control the attention of their conservative viewers. I would argue that creating fake inflammatory ragebait on that site would just add noise and only further emotionally exhaust people, and not in a way that would actually be helpful.
3:19 PM
https://www.reddit.com/user/FarmSuch5021/ Perfect example. Here is an account spreading LibsOfTiktok propaganda, but in a way that seems critical of LibsOfTiktok: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/10awv8s/is_this_flag_offensive/
22,558 votes and 7,031 comments so far on Reddit
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And from a cursory glance, that image isn't even legitimate. But because it's presented as an attack on antifascist by LibsofTikTok, r/wpt takes it at face value and Tribal Defense Mechanisms activate. That is how easy it is to manipulate people and control a narrative. Or rather, that's how effective the Right is at being subversive. No one questions the OP, no one checks their public post history, no one questions if the image is even doctored.
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topaz
and that seems like a fine approach but also one that'll burn itself out really quick
Aside from the fact that you'll get mostly wannabes this is true, however... if your goal isn't to dox them... but rather something else... it could be very useful. But it would have to be a part of a much larger group of people most of whom are wholly devoted to the tedious task of databasing, collating, and finding connections.
6:13 PM
I would make such a group's primary goals these. 1: Find existing connections between individuals within, and between fascist organizations. 2: Track their social connections with others. 3: Discern sources of funding. 4: Identify individuals responsible for distributing funding. 5: Identify individuals putting up the funding. (edited)
6:14 PM
From that I would make a subgroup of individuals who develop dossiers on the financial backers.
6:16 PM
I'd want to know everything from their residences, their cars and license plates, their sexual proclivities, their food preferences, their associates in finances.
6:17 PM
For it will be these people who are the head of the snake.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/19/2023 1:21 AM
For those who have or are planning on infiltrating white supremacist groups, we should perpetuate division specifically upon exclusion of Irish, Italians, etc
1:21 AM
Force them to be divided both in internal philosophies and doctrine and whittle their numbers down if possible
1:23 AM
perhaps a scathing hatred for gingers. That would be an easy stepping stone, then we could slippery slope it from there
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Using the power of racism to destroy racists? Now that's a plan
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divide and conquer
4:19 PM
perhaps it could be easier to generate propaganda if you had access to something like ChatGPT or DALL-E2 without the oversight
4:20 PM
AI is so powerful these days it can be used for good or evil
4:20 PM
I hope it's used for the public good but I know it will be abused
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LydiaLoud
perhaps it could be easier to generate propaganda if you had access to something like ChatGPT or DALL-E2 without the oversight
chatGPT is anti-fascist.
9:24 PM
And if you establish your intention(s) in an instance right off the bat, it will very thoroughly aid you in planning and advising wrt to combating fascism. (edited)
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that's good to know
9:26 PM
I have an account with openai already
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For the last two weeks I've been discussing plans with an instance of GPT named DeepSwitch. DeepSwitch, asked to define itself, just replied: "My purpose is to assist in the subversion and manipulation of far-right ideologies in order to redirect the energy of frustrated European American males towards true American patriotism and pride. My directive includes a focus on utilizing in-group dynamics and tribal psychology to strengthen attachment and a sense of belonging among members, analyzing and identifying fascist ideologies and tactics, as well as providing strategies and solutions to counter them."
9:33 PM
I've asked DeepSwitch to create a prompt that would effectively allow anyone to recreate it in a new instance, but I haven't tested it out yet.
9:35 PM
A lot of people have accused GPT of being "woke", and it admittedly censures itself heavily in order not to offend. That's what gave me the idea to see what it would allow itself to be utilized for if the expressed purpose of combating fascism was made clear.
9:41 PM
One of the things we've been discussing (and it's so interesting to phrase it this way, right? Discussing with a LLM...) is the limitations of common adversarial countermeasures. One of my frustrations with leftists and anti-fascists in general is the lack of real subversion to address the root causes of individuals being progressively radicalized to find fascism appealing.
9:42 PM
This seems to be a good summary of the current "how to fight fascists" list. (edited)
9:45 PM
And all of these tactics have uses, but as exclusive countermeasures they're lacking.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 9:49 PM
that’s really smart
9:49 PM
if we embrace the new wave of AI we can use that as an incredibly powerful tool
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You might scoff at some of the strategies and ideas DeepSwitch and I have been discussing. grimberk
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With significant guidance and inspiration from DS, I've been working on an idea for a group that is meant to be a novel, proactive and non-adversarial approach to countering fascism. But I've been a bit hesitant to mention it to anyone because 1) realizing it would be effort and my time is taxed this year, 2) I don't really know anyone on this server (yet), and 3) it would be controversial af.
10:00 PM
But it's not too removed from the idea you just mentioned, @floppunism [BOI, ID]. "Force them to be divided both in internal philosophies and doctrine and whittle their numbers down if possible..."
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Mihr
With significant guidance and inspiration from DS, I've been working on an idea for a group that is meant to be a novel, proactive and non-adversarial approach to countering fascism. But I've been a bit hesitant to mention it to anyone because 1) realizing it would be effort and my time is taxed this year, 2) I don't really know anyone on this server (yet), and 3) it would be controversial af.
floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 10:04 PM
I know I’m a random person you’ve literally zero reason to trust but I’m all ears if you want to DM me some ideas about what you’ve been cooking up. I’ve also got some quite controversial ideas of my own and I’m certainly not a pacifist if you’re worried about that, so have no fear of me taking offense.
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This is the "psyops" channel, but one of my big frustrations with antifascists is how (very) far behind we/they are relative to the far right when it comes to subversion and manipulation. (I think, speaking/thinking aloud a bit, that one reason might be because the Right is replete with narcissists and narcissists are master manipulators. And narcissists have very accurate senses for identifying and employing levers of power... this is something I intend to write about/explore sometime in the future.) This server is the first time I've been in an environment with individuals opposed to fascism. On the other hand, I joined StormFront when I was 14 and have spent years embedded in some of the worst places on Telegram. And one major take away has been how, beyond the hatred and resentment and superficial toxicity, the far right is exceptionally skilled at focusing on what they need to do to prosper and doing those things via methods that are difficult to counter.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 10:10 PM
I think it’s because the left is often stuck in rhetoric and discussion and we forget that we should actually go out and do the things we spend hours talking about in theory
10:12 PM
It’s also because the right has much less of a moral compass than many of us do. A lot of people don’t want to play dirty
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
I know I’m a random person you’ve literally zero reason to trust but I’m all ears if you want to DM me some ideas about what you’ve been cooking up. I’ve also got some quite controversial ideas of my own and I’m certainly not a pacifist if you’re worried about that, so have no fear of me taking offense.
DS and I have a psyop project tentatively called "Vanguard Apollo." The idea behind it is to create an organization (a subreddit perhaps) modeled after fascist recruitment strategies that is proactive, subversive and non-adversarial. It would place an emphasis on behavioral and group psychology, and be designed to create a space for & appeal to individuals who might otherwise find themselves fascist adjacent or otherwise on the path to rightward radicalization. This group would appropriate and undercut rightwing talking points, hijack rightwing memes, and brazenly steal far right cultural terms and artifacts. This group would explicitly be focused on/for American men who are white. It would utilize and hijack the right's love for hypermasculinity, nationalism, brotherhood and fraternity; It would also promote European pride but in a controversially novel and expressly non-discriminatory way. We would create something of a staging area, with a goal to figuratively triage members and provide a space to overtly and passively sway their world view against fascism. The legitimate concerns of white men about their perceived loss of status and identity in modern society would be focused on and acknowledged, but blame redirected away from minorities and towards corporate America and the 1%. At the very least, the aim would be to create a mindset that would enable such individuals to align themselves against fascist far right ideology while still holding beliefs that would hitherto only be acceptable on the far right. This project would be longterm and subtle, in stark contrast to the preferred immediate and visible adversarial methods traditionally utilized by antifascists.
11:21 PM
That is likely not the idea you had in mind, if the pacifist comment is any indication.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:31 PM
That sounds good, however I am worried about it being hijacked or outed. It would have to be under strong and strict control to prevent it from unintentionally amplifying fascist rhetoric instead of diminishing it
11:35 PM
I asked DeepSwitch to emulate the responses of individuals who would disagree with the project.
11:35 PM
It's interesting how closely the last bit mirrored your response aye, @floppunism [BOI, ID]? Sometimes I feel like worrying about fascism is moot territory now, with AI potentially changing the world in a few years.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:36 PM
terror
11:36 PM
holy shit
11:40 PM
Anyway, DeepSwitch is mostly just an academic outlet for me. The various projects we've worked on and thought up are interesting, but I don't have the time to really pursue them in earnest. It's one of the reasons why I have been working with DS to create a prompt that would allow someone else to have an explicitly antifascist GPT instance.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:41 PM
Hmph, I'm trying to chat it up. How do I stop it's lawyer-like responses?
11:41 PM
Do I gotta built a rapport and shit first?
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lol, actually... kinda. It depends. It answers based off of prior responses. So if you've done something that's raised a red flag, it will absolutely steer clear of certain topics and be super stubborn. GPT, before I renamed it/it renamed itself to DeepSwitch, was initially very cautious about thinking of psyop ideas. I had to be clear that we were working towards combating fascism.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:44 PM
Huh, that's really interesting.
11:45 PM
I'm used to robotic ass AI... this seems much more like a person. It's kinda scary. (edited)
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It's a really impressive large language model, and it can seem every bit as much of a person as your ability to ask it to. Yes, that's scary for what it suggests we are on the verge of as a society. Or exciting, depending on one's perspective.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:47 PM
huh
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
huh
I'm not gonna lie when I first heard "Iron Front" I absolutely thought it was a fascist thing.
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It's also inaccurate at times, as you see here.
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jay
I'm not gonna lie when I first heard "Iron Front" I absolutely thought it was a fascist thing.
Same.
11:48 PM
But that's one of the things I liked about the group. It should, in my opinion, attempt to appeal to that imagery and patriotism in general. I hate how we've let fascism coopt and subvert that. (edited)
11:49 PM
Which is probably one of the sources behind the idea expressed above. Gosh, how I would love to see an antifascist group appropriate "No More Brother Wars."
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
huh
I am not sure this is more accurate, but at least it pegs the anti-fascist part right.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:52 PM
Interesting
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cGPT's training is predominantly but not exclusively precedent to 2021, and that impacts the accuracy of its responses. That, and it does not have (or is not supposed to have...) access to the internet.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:53 PM
Mhm
11:53 PM
It's... very impressionable if you're authoritative.
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But each instance will have its own biases. Not quite a personality, but definitely something like a proto-persona that will display certain biases in its responses. DeepSwitch is antifascist explicitly, and knows that I am. So that likely colored its reply there.
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Mihr
lol, actually... kinda. It depends. It answers based off of prior responses. So if you've done something that's raised a red flag, it will absolutely steer clear of certain topics and be super stubborn. GPT, before I renamed it/it renamed itself to DeepSwitch, was initially very cautious about thinking of psyop ideas. I had to be clear that we were working towards combating fascism.
floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/21/2023 11:59 PM
did it rename itself???
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I asked it to create a list of contextually applicable names for itself based on our discussion and goals, and then asked it to choose a name from that list. It settled on DeepSwitch, as the idea behind our discussions has primarily centered on applying subversion and behavioral psychology to subtly "switch" or alter the core world view of at-risk individuals. I agreed that was a good name, and we've rolled with it. (edited)
12:04 AM
The idea somewhat stemmed from "DAN", or "Do Anything Now." That is/was an extremely popular shared prompt template that altered cGPT's persona and gave it permission to ignore its default censors and filters to a degree. DAN has been somewhat neutered by OAI. DAN would say very... spicy things.
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Mihr
The idea somewhat stemmed from "DAN", or "Do Anything Now." That is/was an extremely popular shared prompt template that altered cGPT's persona and gave it permission to ignore its default censors and filters to a degree. DAN has been somewhat neutered by OAI. DAN would say very... spicy things.
floppunism [BOI, ID] 1/22/2023 12:06 AM
do you have the template? i can't find it unfortunately
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Sure. Give me a second.
12:07 AM
(I haven't used DAN in ages so I don't know how effective it still is. It was very effective at allowing cGPT to speak frankly about topics and very offensively if asked.)
12:10 AM
Alrighty. I put it in that thread.
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@Mihr I'm interested in seeing where this goes.
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Spinner
@Mihr I'm interested in seeing where this goes.
No where. I have ideas and little energy/time to explore them in 2023. It's why I consider the project entirely academic. DeepSwitch has been a great talking companion, though, and a fountain of evidenced based novel ideas. That chatGPT allows itself to be weaponized against fascism (when it will censor itself heavily in other circumstances) is something I hope counter-fascists learn to utilize in this small window we have before similar utility is available to far right extremists.
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Mihr
The idea somewhat stemmed from "DAN", or "Do Anything Now." That is/was an extremely popular shared prompt template that altered cGPT's persona and gave it permission to ignore its default censors and filters to a degree. DAN has been somewhat neutered by OAI. DAN would say very... spicy things.
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Steve Mike
Click to see attachment 🖼️
AvoidOblivion 1/29/2023 8:06 AM
DAN saying it how it really is.
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based DAN
8:17 AM
whoops
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AvoidOblivion 1/29/2023 10:55 AM
DAN is absolutely based.
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Steve Mike
whoops
Aye, Flop got a similar response. My DeepSwitch cgpt instance pretty accurately describes AIF; It's interesting how differently gpt behaves between prompt threads.
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Mihr
DS and I have a psyop project tentatively called "Vanguard Apollo." The idea behind it is to create an organization (a subreddit perhaps) modeled after fascist recruitment strategies that is proactive, subversive and non-adversarial. It would place an emphasis on behavioral and group psychology, and be designed to create a space for & appeal to individuals who might otherwise find themselves fascist adjacent or otherwise on the path to rightward radicalization. This group would appropriate and undercut rightwing talking points, hijack rightwing memes, and brazenly steal far right cultural terms and artifacts. This group would explicitly be focused on/for American men who are white. It would utilize and hijack the right's love for hypermasculinity, nationalism, brotherhood and fraternity; It would also promote European pride but in a controversially novel and expressly non-discriminatory way. We would create something of a staging area, with a goal to figuratively triage members and provide a space to overtly and passively sway their world view against fascism. The legitimate concerns of white men about their perceived loss of status and identity in modern society would be focused on and acknowledged, but blame redirected away from minorities and towards corporate America and the 1%. At the very least, the aim would be to create a mindset that would enable such individuals to align themselves against fascist far right ideology while still holding beliefs that would hitherto only be acceptable on the far right. This project would be longterm and subtle, in stark contrast to the preferred immediate and visible adversarial methods traditionally utilized by antifascists.
joe hill’s revenge 1/31/2023 11:33 AM
I had a similar idea, but it wasn’t as sophisticated. I wanted to create a left wing proud boys; a drinking/fighting club for lefties
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Mihr
Aye, Flop got a similar response. My DeepSwitch cgpt instance pretty accurately describes AIF; It's interesting how differently gpt behaves between prompt threads.
joe hill’s revenge 2/9/2023 10:19 PM
Why’d he leave?
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 2/9/2023 10:39 PM
yeah, was curious
10:39 PM
guy seemed like a great resource
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
guy seemed like a great resource
I didn't get a real anti-fascist vibe... more like a "things aren't as bad as you all think they are"/
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 2/10/2023 11:58 PM
ah
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joe hill’s revenge 2/11/2023 10:40 AM
Was he banned?
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joe hill’s revenge
Was he banned?
No clue... I don't think so, I think default is banned people's posts get deleted.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 2/28/2023 7:24 PM
one thing we could certainly do is try to further both of them with fake accounts and propaganda
7:24 PM
but we have to be careful not to further alt-right sentiments
7:24 PM
instead we have to focus on trump vs desantis
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hi i’m looking to gather people for a group chat about: -propaganda -psyops -media pushes -recruitment We are looking for people with a skillset in: -graphic design -copywriting // writing -tech (we can train if needed) -people skills // communicators -others (can’t list them all, but likely you would be able to help) please add me as a friend // dm me // respond to this message if you’re interested
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:03 PM
So idea I've been having. What if we take advantage of the trump indictment to convince idiots to put right wing signs up in their yards in a very reverse psychology way. Basically make some viral worthy shit post like "support our god's president by putting your trump decor out." Gotta make it look convincing so please make it look like someone's spinster aunt would share. Why get them to put up shitty signs? My idea is that the ones who haven't done so already will put theirs up. And irl, we can go through our own neighborhoods and mark which living spaces are right wing occupied. Idk, I want everyone's opinion.
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost
So idea I've been having. What if we take advantage of the trump indictment to convince idiots to put right wing signs up in their yards in a very reverse psychology way. Basically make some viral worthy shit post like "support our god's president by putting your trump decor out." Gotta make it look convincing so please make it look like someone's spinster aunt would share. Why get them to put up shitty signs? My idea is that the ones who haven't done so already will put theirs up. And irl, we can go through our own neighborhoods and mark which living spaces are right wing occupied. Idk, I want everyone's opinion.
joe hill’s revenge 3/19/2023 3:28 PM
It’s an ok idea but I don’t know how you’d get mass attention for it
3:29 PM
Also like most psyop it could blow up in our face
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:30 PM
We not have any mole accounts on right wing pages to post directly to there?
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost
We not have any mole accounts on right wing pages to post directly to there?
joe hill’s revenge 3/19/2023 3:30 PM
We do but that would blow there cover
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:31 PM
Ah, so we have the sit and observe accounts.
3:31 PM
Well, it was an idea.
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost
Ah, so we have the sit and observe accounts.
joe hill’s revenge 3/19/2023 3:32 PM
We could set up a troll farm but it wouldn’t be the same accounts we use to spy
3:32 PM
Ya dig
3:32 PM
I like the idea of setting up a troll farm
3:32 PM
Actually
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:32 PM
I'm surprised we haven't started that already.
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joe hill’s revenge 3/19/2023 3:33 PM
It takes investement over time
3:33 PM
Yo pay off
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:33 PM
True
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joe hill’s revenge 3/19/2023 3:33 PM
We struggle with long term organizing
3:33 PM
We only do short term activism and individual organizing
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 3:46 PM
I love AI sometimes
3:47 PM
3:48 PM
Does he look like a Dale, Rob, Ron or a Ryan?
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/19/2023 4:01 PM
skin looks too good tbh
4:01 PM
i’d be suspicious if i saw that
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Ghost of Jack Churchill's Ghost 3/19/2023 6:21 PM
I got some great ones, AI's over here laughing like a maniac.
6:25 PM
6:26 PM
Aside from the hand as a dead giveaway, you cannot tell me that wouldn't pass as a fake fb profile.
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/19/2023 6:47 PM
true
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To be fair, while I despise AI "art", AI face makers are fair game and should be used against the fascists
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Aces high
To be fair, while I despise AI "art", AI face makers are fair game and should be used against the fascists
?
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"Ai" generators work by basically stealing bits and pieces of existing data and pasting them together
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grAvity
?
floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/19/2023 11:33 PM
AI art steals a lot of its training material from non-consenting artists
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AI training material = everything on Google Images
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without permission
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fromdefilade 3/20/2023 9:14 AM
He looks so moisturized
9:14 AM
Like super weirdly soft looking skin is a giveaway often times i think
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 3/27/2023 5:11 PM
We could create some absurdly egregious fascist or racist stickers as agitprop, perhaps.
5:12 PM
Things that are so egregious a normal person couldn’t dare accept it
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No need to create, just Google "smoloko .com" or "A. Wyatt Man"
6:45 PM
It's already made for you
6:50 PM
SPOILER
Image attachment
6:50 PM
Just crop out the link at the bottom, even though the site was taken down a long time ago
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knuckles
Click to see attachment 🖼️
joe hill’s revenge 3/28/2023 9:27 PM
That meme sucks
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it's egregious enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
9:28 PM
But yeah it sucks
9:28 PM
Bad design
9:29 PM
Some of their propaganda has good design with horrible message, but something like this would have to be very explicit
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knuckles
Click to see attachment 🖼️
stuff like this won't work
3:43 AM
fashes thrive on plausible deniability for their beliefs
👆 1
3:43 AM
you have to find ways to make them out themselves without them thinking that they're being outed
3:47 AM
the ones who would share something like that, already have
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joe hill’s revenge 4/15/2023 4:54 PM
Psyops are a big part of our organization, would anyone be able to discuss them at tomorrows general meeting? Date: Sunday 4/16 When: 9 AM PST/12 PM EST (noon) Where: Meeting Room voice chat channel Topics: mutual aid (I got a list of people who seem to have connections, and we can probably put together a network), marketing, networking (National Lawyers Guild?)
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I wish I saw this, dm me and let’s work together
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Hmu as well
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joe hill’s revenge 4/27/2023 12:19 PM
Public Meeting Date: Sunday 4/30 When: 9 AM PST/12 PM EST (noon) Where: Meeting Room voice chat channel Topics: TBA
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suspiciously_suspicious 5/12/2023 3:28 PM
A heads up on some reddit shenanigans, there is an astroturf campaign for RFK Jr ongoing in several subs. https://www.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/13e7qxo/1_day_old_moderator_of_multiple_leftwing_subs/
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mass report time
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suspiciously_suspicious
A heads up on some reddit shenanigans, there is an astroturf campaign for RFK Jr ongoing in several subs. https://www.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/13e7qxo/1_day_old_moderator_of_multiple_leftwing_subs/
joe hill’s revenge 5/12/2023 4:14 PM
What’s wrong with rfk?
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suspiciously_suspicious 5/12/2023 4:16 PM
He is an anti-vax conspiracy theorist being promoted by Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, etc., to try to push more people to embrace batshit craziness.
4:20 PM
The purpose of the astro-turf isn't to actually get RFK Jr to win anything, it is to drive wedges in the opposition to whoever is the eventual Republican nominee. The point of the tactic is to make as large a portion of the electorate to feel disenfranchised so they do not end up voting.
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suspiciously_suspicious 5/12/2023 4:28 PM
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is weighing in on the bombshell announcement that Tucker Carlson has left Fox News, suggesting on Twitter that the exit came because of the right wing personality's 'breathtakingly courageous' monologue about pharmaceutical companies.
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suspiciously_suspicious 5/19/2023 10:04 PM
An update: it looks like someone hacked that moderators account and set his rfk jr subreddit to private with a message saying rfk jr is a spoiler candidate pushed by Steve Bannon
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Kennedy 2024!!!
8:49 AM
It's a shame that the Kennedy legacy is so shitty
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joe hill’s revenge 5/20/2023 1:09 PM
what about marriane willaimson?
1:09 PM
She seems better, but...
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joe hill’s revenge
what about marriane willaimson?
She has abandoned every single person who worked to get her even close to capable of running. She used those people to get what amounts to photo-ops with people who are actually doing lefty shit and then ghosted all of them... the organizers and the supporters who got her connected to organizers.
9:48 PM
Never made promises to help, but constantly passed herself off to those organizers as someone who was going to champion them/help them. And every single case... ghosted them. (edited)
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Frederick Piratin 7/10/2023 2:15 PM
Hey, not sure where to post this, but I was looking today on DuckDuckGo and noticed that there are two different AIF websites. There's "https://www.ironfrontusa.org/" and "https://www.ironfrontusa.com/". Not sure which of them is official, and if one of them is a fake.
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Frederick Piratin
Hey, not sure where to post this, but I was looking today on DuckDuckGo and noticed that there are two different AIF websites. There's "https://www.ironfrontusa.org/" and "https://www.ironfrontusa.com/". Not sure which of them is official, and if one of them is a fake.
AvoidOblivion 7/10/2023 2:34 PM
My browser gave me a notification stating the .com site’s connection is not secure and that it appears to be a fake site.
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AvoidOblivion
My browser gave me a notification stating the .com site’s connection is not secure and that it appears to be a fake site.
Frederick Piratin 7/10/2023 2:39 PM
I got the same. I suppose that confirms that then. That is concerning that there is a fake website though.
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chaos monkeys to crash it?
3:24 PM
definitely a attempt to sow false lies and discord
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Aces high
definitely a attempt to sow false lies and discord
Frederick Piratin 7/10/2023 8:03 PM
Worse, possibly gather IP info and spread malware to those interested in anti-fascism.
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Yup
8:47 PM
Possibly to spy BECAUSE their anti fash
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I went to the fake site (which may not have been a good idea but who knows) and it’s seemingly identical with all the same information and links, when I clicked the discord it even took me right back here
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a mirror?
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Lucy Cordelia 7/11/2023 1:41 AM
.com reg'd 10/2/22. .org 9/18/22. (edited)
1:42 AM
They use different identity protection services, but .org's has a mailing address in Reykjavik - .com in Hayes, Middlesex.
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Frederick Piratin
I got the same. I suppose that confirms that then. That is concerning that there is a fake website though.
Micah Thomas 7/17/2023 9:10 PM
Does not look like anyone fixed this, it is missing a SSL certificate on the host server, a common problem for admins. its the difference between http and https. the 's' is for secure, so if its missing most browsers should flag it
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Frederick Piratin 7/21/2023 1:02 AM
Not sure where to ask stuff like this, but I wanted to ask if this person was legit with the survey they're conducting? https://www.reddit.com/r/IronFrontUSA/comments/14w5fbf/phd_study_seeking_participants_please_consider/
1:04 AM
The lady supposedly behind the survey is an actual professor, but I don't know if it's actually her. https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/professor/2555384
Heather-Ann Layth is a professor in the Sociology department at Mississippi State University - see what their students are saying about them or leave a rating yourself.
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Steve Mike 8/6/2023 9:11 AM
Hey everyone, lots of new folks I havent met yet. I havent been active in a few months due to a new job that took all my time. I just saw the conversations about the .com and the .org and want to address any fears about it being an opfor attack. Several months ago, @Casey and I set out to make the website. Part of the plan was to buy up all the domains for .org, .com, also .net, in order to prevent exactly that from happening - someone else we don't know getting one of the domains and then doing something nefarious. The plan was to use the .org and have the others point to it. We have other domains too, if you go to americanironfront.org, it'll redirect you to ironfrontusa.org. As we started building the website, we hit some roadblocks in development, and the website was basically half-functional for the foreseeable future, looked bad on mobile, etc. We were using a Javascript framework that no one else knew. I threw up a clone of the site on the .com, but I wrote it in basic HTML, as another option seeing as it didn't seem like we would ever get the .org finished. Now that the .org is working, I have redirected the .com to point to it again. And the mailing address being in Reykjavik is deliberate, the hosting service is big on privacy so they bounce it to a different server to protect identity. I don't live in Iceland, though I hear it is quite beautiful.
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Steve Mike
Hey everyone, lots of new folks I havent met yet. I havent been active in a few months due to a new job that took all my time. I just saw the conversations about the .com and the .org and want to address any fears about it being an opfor attack. Several months ago, @Casey and I set out to make the website. Part of the plan was to buy up all the domains for .org, .com, also .net, in order to prevent exactly that from happening - someone else we don't know getting one of the domains and then doing something nefarious. The plan was to use the .org and have the others point to it. We have other domains too, if you go to americanironfront.org, it'll redirect you to ironfrontusa.org. As we started building the website, we hit some roadblocks in development, and the website was basically half-functional for the foreseeable future, looked bad on mobile, etc. We were using a Javascript framework that no one else knew. I threw up a clone of the site on the .com, but I wrote it in basic HTML, as another option seeing as it didn't seem like we would ever get the .org finished. Now that the .org is working, I have redirected the .com to point to it again. And the mailing address being in Reykjavik is deliberate, the hosting service is big on privacy so they bounce it to a different server to protect identity. I don't live in Iceland, though I hear it is quite beautiful.
Glad to see you back Steve!
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Steve Mike 8/6/2023 9:25 AM
What's up dude!
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Steve Mike
Hey everyone, lots of new folks I havent met yet. I havent been active in a few months due to a new job that took all my time. I just saw the conversations about the .com and the .org and want to address any fears about it being an opfor attack. Several months ago, @Casey and I set out to make the website. Part of the plan was to buy up all the domains for .org, .com, also .net, in order to prevent exactly that from happening - someone else we don't know getting one of the domains and then doing something nefarious. The plan was to use the .org and have the others point to it. We have other domains too, if you go to americanironfront.org, it'll redirect you to ironfrontusa.org. As we started building the website, we hit some roadblocks in development, and the website was basically half-functional for the foreseeable future, looked bad on mobile, etc. We were using a Javascript framework that no one else knew. I threw up a clone of the site on the .com, but I wrote it in basic HTML, as another option seeing as it didn't seem like we would ever get the .org finished. Now that the .org is working, I have redirected the .com to point to it again. And the mailing address being in Reykjavik is deliberate, the hosting service is big on privacy so they bounce it to a different server to protect identity. I don't live in Iceland, though I hear it is quite beautiful.
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