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The American Iron Front Collaboration Discord
Other / antifascist-intersectionality
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What is this channel
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I'd hate to think a woman's take was off topic on any of the other channels, so I kinda bristle at the implication, so if there's a benign reason make it a pinned message or something.
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1uc2
I'd hate to think a woman's take was off topic on any of the other channels, so I kinda bristle at the implication, so if there's a benign reason make it a pinned message or something.
Agreed. As a woman, I personally don't think we need this so unless there's a serious reason to have it I'd say it should get deleted
šŸ’Æ 1
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maybe women specific topics? Abortion, women's healthcare?
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But like... Those things apply to trans men too. Idk I just don't think we need this channel to discuss those things
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True true
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WojtektheBear 11/10/2022 3:00 PM
@Skullmaggot this is your doing. Address it.
šŸ‘ 1
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I was just thinking that it might be good for a vulnerable segment to have certain channels as "safe space" but I'm not sure how Discord features can support that.
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OkraMonk
Agreed. As a woman, I personally don't think we need this so unless there's a serious reason to have it I'd say it should get deleted
Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:20 PM
This channel was created to discuss the challenges and perspective of women in organizing antifascist groups. In particular, this relates to a member wanting to speak out about sexual harassment in her group, but I was hoping to have her discuss things on her own timeframe. Until then, if there’s an intersectionality of challenges, we can discuss that here. Or, if we even need to rename/reframe the channel, we can do that.
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Ah, I see. So like a safe space kinda deal? If so I'd say it might be good to specify who exactly is supposed to be "safe" in it and would petition to include trans folks in that umbrella since they generally get exposed to a lot of the same misogyny that cis women do (I am saying this as a cis woman)
5:25 PM
Just important to consider b/c trans women often get excluded from these spaces and I don't want anyone to feel like they need to prove they're "woman enough" to be included
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Just to be clear I'm not opposed to it existing given that there's a good reason given for creating it, I just know, having been in a zillion women's groups over the years, that these details need to be hammered out first b/c otherwise there are issues later
5:38 PM
Just want to make sure we don't create exclusion while trying to be inclusive : )
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OkraMonk
Just important to consider b/c trans women often get excluded from these spaces and I don't want anyone to feel like they need to prove they're "woman enough" to be included
Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:38 PM
K, I can at least rename the channel, although the original need was to discuss ā€œwomen’s perspective on antifascist organizing.ā€
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Hm. Maybe "Femme folks"?
5:39 PM
Not a huge fan of the term in general but maybe it's a good situation to use "womxn" lol
5:39 PM
No wait that's the wrong one, isn't there like a word for women that includes trans women
5:41 PM
Maybe honestly just pinning a post at the top that clarifies that "women includes cis and trans women alike"
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Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:41 PM
antifa-intersectionality?
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Hm, might lose a bit of the original meaning as that can also mean race intersectionality but maybe that's a good thing
5:43 PM
I'm feeling the point is to discuss marginalized voices in anti-fascist organizing and if there's a need for that for sexism there's also a need for that for racism
5:43 PM
I kinda like it
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Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:43 PM
or two channels, ā€œantifa and womenā€ and ā€œantifa and lgbtqia+ā€
5:44 PM
That too, antifa and minority
5:44 PM
But, maybe just intersectionality
5:45 PM
ā€œMarginalized-voices?ā€
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I mean idk if we have enough of those discussions to fill a whole three channels yet. I like just "intersectionality" a decent amount
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Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:46 PM
Kk
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Especially if we put a pinned note to explain that this includes any marginalized experience, racial, sexual orientation, gender, etc and that those are the voices this space is intended for. We can always change by creating new ones if it ends up not being a great setup
šŸ‘ 2
5:48 PM
Thanks skull that was way more complicated than I was expecting to get lol
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Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 5:49 PM
Eh, that’s how everything goes
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Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 6:07 PM
This channel is for discussing the perspective and challenges of being both antifascist and a particular sex/sexuality/gender/ethnicity/disability/etc.
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Skullmaggot pinned a message to this channel. 11/10/2022 6:07 PM
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WojtektheBear
@Skullmaggot this is your doing. Address it.
Skullmaggot 11/10/2022 6:07 PM
Addressed
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rathernot123 11/11/2022 1:06 AM
Y’all are thinking about that too hard
1:06 AM
Also things intersect with both race and queer things differently (edited)
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rathernot123
Y’all are thinking about that too hard
rathernot123 11/11/2022 1:07 AM
Trans women are women right? That’s it question over
ā˜ļø 5
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rathernot123
Trans women are women right? That’s it question over
I mean yes, obviously, but it's not always assumed by everyone. I've been in women's groups that freaked out when asked about trans women joining. So based on that experience I feel it's good to clarify. If for no other reason than so that I can cut my losses early before investing any time/energy on a terfy space.
ā˜ļø 5
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I'm probably extra sensitive to it though, sorry if I overreacted. Just wanna make sure we're clear everyone is welcome
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rathernot123 11/11/2022 3:34 PM
if answer was anything i would be out sooo
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I have a question-has anyone had issues of harassment and/or folks within your organizations acting a particular way towards other members? I don’t know if it’s the area I’m in, but my little group has been having issues.
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briar
I have a question-has anyone had issues of harassment and/or folks within your organizations acting a particular way towards other members? I don’t know if it’s the area I’m in, but my little group has been having issues.
KC had a big problem while I was there during the 2020 shenanigans with sexual harassment and sexual assault. More or less every crew I've been a part of since 1992 has struggled with some kind of shit. I'd be willing to talk it through with ya and try to help you develop a course of action to manage/deal with it.
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Yeah actually, some tips would be great. Our core members are all of one minority group or another, and it hasn’t been great
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briar
Yeah actually, some tips would be great. Our core members are all of one minority group or another, and it hasn’t been great
Can you describe some of the issues? You can rename individuals to A - B - C etc... if you like.
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The first came from A) presented super knowledgeable, we spoke for quite some time before meeting up, did the meet up, he was instantly touchy feely (meet up was food and range and discussions, multiple people). After I put him in his place from that he got snippy in group chat and went on about some venture and something about how he protected something WITH the bugaloo boys down by Kenosha. He got booted.
8:00 PM
B) Primitive Anarchist- him and his girlfriend would come hang out. He got into it about tribal lands with a tribal member. He then went down the path of how hard it was being a white man and didn’t shut up
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briar
The first came from A) presented super knowledgeable, we spoke for quite some time before meeting up, did the meet up, he was instantly touchy feely (meet up was food and range and discussions, multiple people). After I put him in his place from that he got snippy in group chat and went on about some venture and something about how he protected something WITH the bugaloo boys down by Kenosha. He got booted.
Good call. What mechanism does your group use for deciding to boot someone?
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briar
B) Primitive Anarchist- him and his girlfriend would come hang out. He got into it about tribal lands with a tribal member. He then went down the path of how hard it was being a white man and didn’t shut up
Is B otherwise unknown to any of you? No rapport to use to educate on the inappropriateness? Still hanging out?
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briar
Vote
Consensus or majority?
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Not hanging out anymore. We tried to talk to him. I know community is the only thing that can help that whole situation, but he shut everyone out. He threw a tantrum when I invited him for our soup gathering and told him I didn’t have time to get into an argument with him because I had a lot to do
8:04 PM
Majority, but the boots were consensus
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briar
Not hanging out anymore. We tried to talk to him. I know community is the only thing that can help that whole situation, but he shut everyone out. He threw a tantrum when I invited him for our soup gathering and told him I didn’t have time to get into an argument with him because I had a lot to do
Seems like it worked out then, a lot of folks like this fall by the wayside, and that's okay.
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How can I filter through them faster?
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briar
Majority, but the boots were consensus
I have a consensus procedure process I can give you if you want to adopt it for everything overall.
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Like i know the behavior doesn’t like to start until someone feels decently comfortable
8:06 PM
I would like that
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briar
Like i know the behavior doesn’t like to start until someone feels decently comfortable
I'll give you an example I heard from a rafting company owner up here... he takes rafting guide candidates on a 5 day rafting trip as a final interview. Within a few days people forget they are being interviewed.
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Thank you!
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briar
How can I filter through them faster?
I hesitate to say that it takes as long as it takes. But that's really the baseline. It should be noted that back in the 90's in LA/Long Beach no one even spoke to you unless A: They saw you get rowdy against the Neos B: Had a personal invite from someone already solidly in the group. And even then you were kept at arms length for weeks or months.
8:20 PM
But things were a little more violent back then. A probably would have been booted out of whatever meeting he got touchy feely at with literal boots. And B probably would have been tossed out just as a bouncer would a drunk.
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Oof. I mean, I’ve certainly seen run in’s and stompings of Nazis trying to get into punk and metal bars, but it was never organized. You just didn’t let them in
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briar
Oof. I mean, I’ve certainly seen run in’s and stompings of Nazis trying to get into punk and metal bars, but it was never organized. You just didn’t let them in
It's complicated, yeah at shows it was a free for all, but some folks hung out together and did other shit... some as mundane as putting together a table to distribute literature at like Cinco de Mayo... not specifically just Anti-Fascist stuff but Anarchist education and actions.
9:40 PM
To get in good with folks outside of shows you were watched before usually being invited.
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Anarcho Freemasons
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Interesting. That was LA in the 90’s?
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I like the growth within left communities that came with the internet and the idea of inclusion. But I still firmly believe any group organizing to do anything of importance in person should be invite only.
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Agreed
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knuckles
Anarcho Freemasons
Freemasons are more inclusive than Anarchists were back then.
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briar
Interesting. That was LA in the 90’s?
LA and Long Beach, I can't speak to anywhere else, but given that cops and fash alike hated us... I wouldn't be surprised if there was a LOT of vetting happening elsewhere too.
9:49 PM
Also I can only speak about 92-95 and a rather small circle of folks at that. What I can say is that by 98' generally LA anarchists had the internet and also had isolated interactions with others to straight edge vegans... it was a dark and lonely time when I got out of the Navy as a meat eating alcohol drinking cigarette smoking veteran looking for my comrades.
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Out of curiosity, why did you enlist in the Navy if you were an anarchist?
9:56 PM
I haven't spoken with many anarchists, but the ones I have spoken to seem to have an absolutely 100% negative view of anything regarding the military
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1: When I enlisted I wasn't really all in entirely... which made the rest of the reasons work. 2: We were dirt poor, my mother was an Anthropologist but hadn't gotten her doctorate (had been witnessing the formation of the EZLN from 1984 on and then studying the aftermath of their declaration of war against Mexico) so there were no prospects of my getting to go to college. 3: I really wanted to fly... like so badly I could taste it... and the Navy/Marine Corps has a program where enlisted can be selected to become officers and have their college paid for. 4: I didn't think as Navy I'd ever see direct combat (I was wrong about a lot of things).
10:22 PM
@knuckles
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Gotcha
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I highly recommend no one go into the military, but just like me at 17 (when I decided to go)... a lot of folks are so poor that it's their only chance to escape it without ostensibly victimizing others. This was 95' I didn't know our embargo of Iraq was a shooting blockade... I thought it was peacetime. (see above about being wrong about a lot of things) (edited)
šŸ‘† 1
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Thank you @Spinner , I really appreciate your insight
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JohnBrosGhost 12/2/2022 4:16 PM
just dropped a series of pride arrows in the #graphic-designers channel if you want to use them in avatars, etc. LMK if you need edits
ā¤ļø 1
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rathernot123
Trans women are women right? That’s it question over
hey, great point, but frankly, stating this or similar facts is not always enough to create true inclusivity. (edited)
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anyone have any good ways to address internalized toxic masculinity / hyper masculinity? ive come a long way but still have a lot of behaviors and processes that run counter to the things i believe in and i want to believe that these things just go away as i learn more, but im not too sure
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 2/8/2023 10:39 AM
Are you comfortable with saying what you’re specifically struggling with?
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floppunism [BOI, ID]
Are you comfortable with saying what you’re specifically struggling with?
I have trouble with knowing how much aggression is acceptable. I recently raised my voice at someone and made physical contact with them (not violently, but forcefully) and I thought it was okay since we were in a rush, but they were very upset. Since I don't have executive functioning all of the time I want to get rid of these behaviors because I've hurt someone I really care about, and I'll continue to do so to others if I don't address it immediately.
2:59 PM
I know there's the fact that I should never make contact or raise my voice, but I thought these things were perfectly fine between friends, and I've been thinking a lot about why I think that way.
3:02 PM
It's particularly upsetting because I thought that I was past this, as I've had a lot of issues regarding this in the past. From about 2016-2018/19 I would say I was a vocal proponent of fash propaganda and "tradition", and I'd like to believe that I'm the complete opposite of who I used to be back then in terms of masculinity, politics, et cetera. But clearly some behaviors and habits still remain and the only way I can think of addressing them are therapy and maybe workshops(?). I was also told by a friend how they think that although I am very vocal about ecological, labor, trans etc issues, I haven't been as good with feminist issues (which I do think is a pretty major problem with modern anarchism).
3:08 PM
I've definitely become better at recognizing these behaviors and tackling them but it's always been sort of a passive process as I continue to read and study, but I really do need to focus on this much more than I have, and probably more than theory and action—I don't think it really matters if I'm doing good when I'm actively hurting those around me, either by subconsciously reinforcing toxic masculinity or acting it out. I can recognize it most of the time but clearly there are instances where it flies under the radar, and I need to address that no matter what
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floppunism [BOI, ID] 2/8/2023 4:33 PM
The biggest factor there was probably making contact. I make efforts to absolutely refrain from any contact unless it’s in a casual circumstance.
4:33 PM
I don’t know how else to give advice than recognize this as a learning situation and stay more vigilant of how you act from now on.
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Thanks, that's good advice. I'm definitely reflecting on how I incorporate contact into my regular interactions with others right now.
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vitaminWee 2/9/2023 5:44 AM
Communication/listening styles of different camps of people. Pretty much there’s ā€œpassiveā€, ā€œassertiveā€, and ā€œaggressiveā€ communication styles. People taking you in react differently to each of them. Aggressive is showing isolating results. I’m new to it too and thinking about shoring up ā€œassertive communicationā€ style which is kindness connection/respect/emotional care to the other foremost, then, self boundaries and self intuitions not kept hidden inside but presented at others openings/opportunity.
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jay
I know there's the fact that I should never make contact or raise my voice, but I thought these things were perfectly fine between friends, and I've been thinking a lot about why I think that way.
Never say never. With friends it can be perfectly fine in specific contexts and with specific inflection. EG: it's well established that a friend always makes the two of you late, so you push them towards the door making a joke about not being late this time. But a combination of physical contact and negative emotional context speech (insulting or angry voice) is pretty much always a recipe for hurt feelings. I'm 46 years old... my parents taught me (mom and dad both) that when you argue with someone you raise your voice. The entire time they were married, my first 6 years, they argued constantly, loudly, and insultingly. I can tell you this... It's been 20 years since I figured out where my conditioning to yell came from... and I'm still not entirely over it.
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@jay I really enjoy this YouTuber. He has solid perspectives on how to be a man in a positive way, and often calls out shitty internet bros skillfully. https://youtube.com/@TheRealSpeechProf
A dad who definitely has ears. Sometimes funny, always kind. Owed a cheeseball from Brendan Fraser. šŸ“¬: Hello@thespeechprof.com
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ā•£Xanā•  8/29/2023 11:32 AM
I don’t know what this channel is. What is it for and what dose intersectionality mean?
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@ā•£Xanā•  Different groups with different focuses working together and supporting each other.
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ā•£Xanā• 
I don’t know what this channel is. What is it for and what dose intersectionality mean?
Skullmaggot 9/3/2023 12:49 AM
Intersectionality is about how different experiences (i.e. race, gender, sexuality, etc.) can combine to produce unique cases. For example, the successes of early American feminism boosted the standings of white women but not so much those of black women. The experience of being black and a woman was different from (and disregarded by early feminism) being white and a women, as was being black and a woman different from being black and a man. This antifascist intersectionality channel was originally created to discuss experiences related to being an antifascist and a woman, or antifascist and LGBTQIA+, or antifascist and anything else, and how that affects organizing challenges.
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ā•£Xanā•  9/3/2023 10:14 AM
Ah ok
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