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The American Iron Front Collaboration Discord
CALL TO ACTION / political-scientists
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Skullmaggot 7/9/2022 3:15 AM
@samlovespossums @Rx.Gonzo Hello, I'd like to figure out how to develop your capabilities. What sorts of projects do you think would help fight fascism?
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Familiarizing antifascists with firearms, basic maintenance, and a basic understanding of first aid. When shit kicks off we are gonna be kicking ourselves if we don’t have any real understanding of these things. We also really need organization, even one large force online a red state would go a long way, just to let people know they aren’t alone and offer help in pointing them in the right direction. Let me sleep on it and I’ll see if I can think of something a bit more substantial 👍🏼👍🏼
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Skullmaggot 7/9/2022 3:26 AM
@Rx.Gonzo No, that’s still pretty substantial!
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Thanks! Another good one would be finding a simple way to explain fascism to right wingers, the more conservatives you can stop from embracing openly fascist stances, the less fascists you’ll have to deal with. A lot of people just don’t have an understanding of what fascism is outside of the Nazis, and this plays into the “it can’t happen here” mentality.
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Rx.Gonzo
Thanks! Another good one would be finding a simple way to explain fascism to right wingers, the more conservatives you can stop from embracing openly fascist stances, the less fascists you’ll have to deal with. A lot of people just don’t have an understanding of what fascism is outside of the Nazis, and this plays into the “it can’t happen here” mentality.
Braakinthesaddle 7/9/2022 3:35 AM
You just described my father exactly
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Braakinthesaddle
You just described my father exactly
I feel your pain, most of my moms side of the family is like that, I feel they just need to be convinced, I’m just not entirely sure how to convince them at this point
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Rx.Gonzo
I feel your pain, most of my moms side of the family is like that, I feel they just need to be convinced, I’m just not entirely sure how to convince them at this point
Braakinthesaddle 7/9/2022 3:49 AM
One thing I said to my dad recently that might have made him think just a little bit was, "I get that you may not intentionally be a fascist, but the side that you support is the same side as the actual fascists." He didnt really have a response to that, and this is a man who has to have the last word in any conversation.
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Braakinthesaddle
One thing I said to my dad recently that might have made him think just a little bit was, "I get that you may not intentionally be a fascist, but the side that you support is the same side as the actual fascists." He didnt really have a response to that, and this is a man who has to have the last word in any conversation.
Oh damn, that’s a really good one. I’ve got a buddy I’m gonna try that on 😅
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Rx.Gonzo
Oh damn, that’s a really good one. I’ve got a buddy I’m gonna try that on 😅
Braakinthesaddle 7/9/2022 3:52 AM
Granted my father also thinks that the movie "2000 Mules" is a documentary, rather than a farce so...🤷🏻‍♂️
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Braakinthesaddle
Granted my father also thinks that the movie "2000 Mules" is a documentary, rather than a farce so...🤷🏻‍♂️
My buddy isn’t that far gone yet, he recently got into a new church that has really changed him, hopefully I can get through to him. He used to be such a nice guy.
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Rx.Gonzo
Thanks! Another good one would be finding a simple way to explain fascism to right wingers, the more conservatives you can stop from embracing openly fascist stances, the less fascists you’ll have to deal with. A lot of people just don’t have an understanding of what fascism is outside of the Nazis, and this plays into the “it can’t happen here” mentality.
Skullmaggot 7/9/2022 4:02 AM
You might also be interested in the #psyops channel.
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Skullmaggot
You might also be interested in the #psyops channel.
Oh definitely! I’ll be sure to check it out
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HLMenckenFan 7/9/2022 4:59 PM
We need to be able to rely on a working definition for what constitutes fascism
5:00 PM
We need to identify what we are against
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HLMenckenFan
We need to identify what we are against
One of the key questions today is can we use words like fascism with fidelity to the meaning of that word in world history?
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HLMenckenFan 7/10/2022 11:02 AM
I like that list
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It's a solid list but we also need something more punchy
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HLMenckenFan 7/10/2022 12:22 PM
How so?
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"Fascism" and "Nazi" have been attributed to a wide variety of groups and people. If you aren't able to quickly articulate why your local Christian Conservatives, for example, serve fascist interests all you'll do is serve to unite most folks against you (edited)
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HLMenckenFan 7/10/2022 3:40 PM
Argue that they go against Christ’s teachings
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Veradux
"Fascism" and "Nazi" have been attributed to a wide variety of groups and people. If you aren't able to quickly articulate why your local Christian Conservatives, for example, serve fascist interests all you'll do is serve to unite most folks against you (edited)
Ask them if they believe their ideas and points of view should be enforced onto others who don't share the same ideas.
7:36 PM
Then you can proceed from there, I debate these people often and too frequently they'll walk away or call me woke or a communist or something lol
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HLMenckenFan
Argue that they go against Christ’s teachings
Religious arguments have no basis in logic and have a myriad of conflicting assertions. You're best to not argue on religion imo.
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Snaggy
Ask them if they believe their ideas and points of view should be enforced onto others who don't share the same ideas.
I know how to argue against Christian Conservatives lol I was saying its good to have a concise definition of fascism, be able to explain to them how their beliefs enable fascism, and explain real simply why that's a bad thing
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Snaggy
Then you can proceed from there, I debate these people often and too frequently they'll walk away or call me woke or a communist or something lol
If you're debating to piss people off sounds like you're nailing it, but reality is that you probably shouldn't try to get to that point so that you may actually win some "hearts and minds" away from fascist ideologues
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Veradux
I know how to argue against Christian Conservatives lol I was saying its good to have a concise definition of fascism, be able to explain to them how their beliefs enable fascism, and explain real simply why that's a bad thing
Oh of course. The problem is that I don't think they'll ever comprehend how their ideas are inherently authoritarian or that they'll ever care
7:52 PM
Thats what i was getting at, at protests these people are usually seen congregating with each other and automatically refuse to have a good faith discussion so they usually reduce themselves down to that point
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Veradux
Religious arguments have no basis in logic and have a myriad of conflicting assertions. You're best to not argue on religion imo.
HLMenckenFan 7/10/2022 7:52 PM
Makes sense to me
7:52 PM
I'm not religious anyway
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Snaggy
Thats what i was getting at, at protests these people are usually seen congregating with each other and automatically refuse to have a good faith discussion so they usually reduce themselves down to that point
I don't think anyone is under the impression that you can convince anyone of anything at a protest. Those who are there are likely set in their ideologies.
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Snaggy
Thats what i was getting at, at protests these people are usually seen congregating with each other and automatically refuse to have a good faith discussion so they usually reduce themselves down to that point
Usually whenever you have a debate or discussion regardless, you do it to change the mind of the audience or people overhearing and make them have a discussion or though about what you guys were speaking of because more often than not the person you're speaking to won't
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What I was getting at is if you're having a conversation with your neighbor
7:54 PM
For example, you're chatting with them and they mention this cool app called Truth social where they get all their news from lol
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HLMenckenFan 7/10/2022 7:55 PM
"Truth" social
7:55 PM
lol
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Usually those people are reactionaries lol, it's hard to convince them of anything because they're just saying/regurgitating points that they've overheard rather than actual facts and evidence that lies outside of anecdotes or bs
7:57 PM
Second part applies to neighbors too
7:58 PM
"Regurgitating points-"
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Not all of them. I'd argue a good chunk are propagandized to the point of living in a different reality. You can change those people
7:58 PM
Reactionaries, yeah, fuck em
7:58 PM
Frankly, I've given up trying to convince anybody right of center of anything, but I don't think they're all beyond hope
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Veradux
Not all of them. I'd argue a good chunk are propagandized to the point of living in a different reality. You can change those people
Brandolini's Law
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Snaggy
Brandolini's Law
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also saying doing nothing isn't going to refute anything either
7:59 PM
We do the thing not because it is easy, but because it is hard
8:00 PM
How do we fight propaganda? With propaganda!
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Veradux
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also saying doing nothing isn't going to refute anything either
Oh of course, it's just hard because of brandolini's law
8:02 PM
I always say, "where did you get that from?" "Source?" "Can you define that?" "Why?(Socratic method) etc..
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If y'all are interested in debating the crazy away you should read up on deprogramming cult members
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HoustonInHouston 7/11/2022 10:35 AM
As someone who once identified as a Christian (still do) and a conservative (still don’t), I understand the current cult mindset fairly well. Sojourners Magazine had a great article on deprogramming the Church from the Trump Qult and I’ll try to link what I can here. It quotes and refers to cult experts not explicitly religious-affiliated: (edited)
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HoustonInHouston
As someone who once identified as a Christian (still do) and a conservative (still don’t), I understand the current cult mindset fairly well. Sojourners Magazine had a great article on deprogramming the Church from the Trump Qult and I’ll try to link what I can here. It quotes and refers to cult experts not explicitly religious-affiliated: (edited)
HLMenckenFan 7/11/2022 12:05 PM
The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the President Uses Mind Control
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HoustonInHouston 7/11/2022 12:55 PM
Ripped the article to a pdf. Worth a quick read.
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HLMenckenFan 7/11/2022 1:51 PM
Cool
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HLMenckenFan 7/13/2022 11:28 PM
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I'm going to add this to my to-read
9:59 AM
Rip Carl Sagan
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Carl Sagan was a great man, studious, a great educator, a proponent of human rights, and dedicated to his family. He taught us to not be so arrogant and proud, but also taught us to care and respect one another. We are small, a blip in time, yet we are also capable of great works of compassion.
10:09 AM
He didn't badger us over the head about how puny and inconsequential we are, he inspired us to do our best in every way.
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/14/2022 10:48 AM
Im a huge fan of Carl Sagan. I really recommend this book.
10:49 AM
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
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RaiseRuntimeError
Im a huge fan of Carl Sagan. I really recommend this book.
That's the one I posted! Classic book, 11/10, good as Einstein's Why Socialism
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RaiseRuntimeError 7/14/2022 11:02 AM
I have never read Einstein's Why Socialism
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Very great book, I recommend anyone to read it to understand why we're currently fucked as a world due to capitalism
11:07 AM
Electronic library. Download books free. Finding books | Z-Library. Download books for free. Find books
11:09 AM
As a leftist, I feel it is my obligation to give you guys this beautiful resource to access books for free, unrestrained from capital and a payment avenue. Keep this a bit low-key tho But please support the work of writers you love and works you enjoy, as purchasing their books keeps them able to sustain themselves-especially if they're self-published. (edited)
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11:13 AM
On that note, let me recommend some books:
11:14 AM
Manufacturing Consent/Content by Noam Chomsky. (edited)
11:18 AM
Imperialism the highest stage of capitalism by Lenin(he's a very controversial figure but it's a great book that can spur discussion as much of what he said was right). (edited)
11:18 AM
State and Revolution by Lenin(same deal as above). (edited)
11:21 AM
Dark Alliance by Gary Web, some shocking stuff there that the CIA flooded POC/black communities with crack to fuel the drug war and fund the contras in an effort to undermine South American democracies. (edited)
11:21 AM
The System by Robert B Reich
11:21 AM
The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton
11:21 AM
On Anarchism by Noam Chomsky
11:22 AM
And American Rule by Jared Yates Sexton
11:25 AM
All great books that can contribute to our discussion in strengthening our fight against Authortarianism/Fascism and constructing a more fair and just democracy and economy. (edited)
11:26 AM
Anyway, I typed too much, I'm kicking it back to you boys!
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HLMenckenFan 7/14/2022 11:57 AM
I like that resource
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HLMenckenFan 7/15/2022 9:47 AM
The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt is a good book
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HLMenckenFan
I like that resource
I will always say to support your local public library system though
11:44 AM
Sign up online or in person at your library and you can get access to their e-books too (edited)
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HLMenckenFan 7/15/2022 12:04 PM
Alright
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I realize I'm a but late to the book reccomendations discussion, but 'Bring The War Home' by Kathleen Belew is probably one of my favorite books on the subject of American fascism/right-wing extremism. In particular the historical context it gives comes in handy when looking at comtemprary fascist fuckery.
4:13 PM
The white power movement has declared war against the United States and has carried out -- with military precision -- an escalating campaign of terror against the American public. Kathleen Belew gives the first full history of a movement that consolidated around a sense of betrayal over Vietnam and made tragic headlines with the Oklahoma City bo...
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HLMenckenFan 7/15/2022 7:24 PM
I've read it. It's very useful.
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sans_culottes 7/19/2022 3:49 PM
Some books I recommend, https://theauthoritarians.org by Bob Altmeyer, and Seeing Like A State: https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=36A89E882F26CF3A5BCFC75130481BE0
Library Genesis is a scientific community targeting collection of books on natural science disciplines and engineering.
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HLMenckenFan 7/19/2022 11:04 PM
I see
11:04 PM
Do you have any resources on ideological pipelines?
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A political clusterfuck 7/19/2022 11:08 PM
I will guarrentee you half the other polysci majors on my campus will be left wing pacifists or fucking moderates
11:09 PM
except my friend who is a socially liberal economically left wing japanese nationalist(his views are as strange as mine)
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HLMenckenFan
Do you have any resources on ideological pipelines?
sans_culottes 7/19/2022 11:11 PM
Best coverage on ideological pipelines that I know of is I Don’t Speak German podcast.
11:11 PM
Experts on it discussing active networks
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HLMenckenFan 7/19/2022 11:24 PM
I see
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HLMenckenFan 7/19/2022 11:35 PM
Thanks
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HLMenckenFan
Thanks
sans_culottes 7/19/2022 11:55 PM
De nada 🙂
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http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html <-- ideological pipelines are built from moral psychology
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i should be here
1:14 AM
im decent with poly sci
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IFUSA Wiki. Contribute to IronFrontUSA/wiki development by creating an account on GitHub.
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thats a good defintiion, but a section that goes into the details of the ideology itself would also he helpfull
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@zim what ideology would you like to see featured?
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1uc2
@zim what ideology would you like to see featured?
talk about the specific beliefs of different types of fascists.
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Maybe we could have a page on each? Can you make a list? We can put the list on the kanban.
12:15 PM
Kanban board..
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https://eeradicalization.com/the-extremism-market-and-salad-bar-ideology/ <-- this showed up on the subreddit today. It explains why I didn't want to get too much into the ideologies.
Article author: Hicham Tiflati Hicham Tiflati, Ph.D.   Can I get an extremist violent ideology plate
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zim
talk about the specific beliefs of different types of fascists.
WojtektheBear 10/5/2022 9:41 PM
This I can certainly help with
9:41 PM
A taxonomy of the far right
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WojtektheBear
A taxonomy of the far right
yeah
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WojtektheBear 10/5/2022 9:44 PM
I’ve missed this place, overwhelming as it can be sometimes
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WojtektheBear
I’ve missed this place, overwhelming as it can be sometimes
what place?
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zim
what place?
WojtektheBear 10/5/2022 10:15 PM
The server
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WojtektheBear
The server
but you are still here, so why the past tense?
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zim
but you are still here, so why the past tense?
WojtektheBear 10/5/2022 10:16 PM
Took a break and I’m still easing my way back in
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makes sense
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LessthanLoneWolf 10/6/2022 2:18 AM
How does everyone portray the objectives of the AIF? Other than “anti-fascism” and “pro-democracy,” does anyone go into detail what those mean? I have a few ideas about that, and I want to have some other viewpoints
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LessthanLoneWolf
How does everyone portray the objectives of the AIF? Other than “anti-fascism” and “pro-democracy,” does anyone go into detail what those mean? I have a few ideas about that, and I want to have some other viewpoints
WojtektheBear 10/6/2022 10:04 AM
You can expand on that but the whole point of being big tent is that there are overarching principles we hew to. We’ve talked about writing some sort of manifesto but frankly it’s a lot of work collaboratively and I’d rather be defined by our actions and what we’re against
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WojtektheBear
You can expand on that but the whole point of being big tent is that there are overarching principles we hew to. We’ve talked about writing some sort of manifesto but frankly it’s a lot of work collaboratively and I’d rather be defined by our actions and what we’re against
yeah, were are honestly a reactionary group, only responding to other things.
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zim
yeah, were are honestly a reactionary group, only responding to other things.
WojtektheBear 10/18/2022 9:57 AM
I think that’s a pretty unfair framing of the situation from someone who just joined
9:57 AM
Reactionary generally has a more broader meaning than just reacting to something
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WojtektheBear
Reactionary generally has a more broader meaning than just reacting to something
true, i was being literal
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zim
true, i was being literal
WojtektheBear 10/18/2022 10:06 AM
Fair
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WojtektheBear
Fair
how do i respond to socdems who are convinced their ideology is socialist?
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zim
how do i respond to socdems who are convinced their ideology is socialist?
WojtektheBear 10/18/2022 10:12 AM
Not relevant to AIF but plenty of SocDems including myself are socialists in the tradition of Bernstein. Why do you feel the need to invalidate the votes of people who agree with you on values?
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while socdems can be socialist
10:13 AM
this person i was debating was using a false definition that would include capitalist social democratic parties
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WojtektheBear 10/18/2022 10:14 AM
Sounds like a giant waste of your time
10:14 AM
i just dont know how to counter it
10:15 AM
when i say socialists are have to be capitalist, and generally dupport worker MOP ownership, i just get a "nuh uh"
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AarborneDivision 10/18/2022 1:59 PM
I'm definitely not an expert and still learning the finer points of all the traditions. But as somebody who tends to fall somewhere around reform-focused democratic socialist ideas, I honestly agree that debating people about it is a waste of time and energy. There are so many traditions within the broader "socialist" label that all believe in different ideas for achieving their goals. The two big defining lines I've seen are between libertarian vs. state socialism, and reform vs. revolutionary methods. Best I've been able to tell, a lot of modern social democrats have some concept of socialist goals, but are focused on achieving them through the political systems that exist now. Some like Tony Blair's New Labour can get so far from those goals that they tend to just resemble another political party that's vaguely left of center. It's especially hard in the US because our concept of socialism is so stunted that most people immediately assume people are talking about Stalinist style communism when they even mention the word. So people who would be considered pretty centrist in modern democracies carry the label of "social democrat," hence a lot of soc dems in the US can be pretty pro capitalism. That's just been my experience, and I hope that once we start broadening our political vocabulary there will be a little more room to better define different belief structures. I get the frustration though.
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Some of the core characteristics of fascism: Ultra-conservatism, (socially) traditionalism, ultra-nationalism (especially ethnic nationalism, often to the point of ethnic/racial supremacism). Anti-liberalism, anti-republicanism, anti-democratism, anti-constitutionalism. Authoritarianism or totalitarianism; one-party rule & dictatorship. "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." Social Darwinism (survival of the fittest essentially, stronger nations have a natural right to invade and control weaker nations) (and sometimes eugenics) Collectivism (the nation must be put first, before the individual, communities and families must be put before individuals as well. The whole matters more than the parts) Militarism, revanchism, irredentism, expansionism, imperialism, anti-pacifism "War alone brings up to their highest tension all human energies and imposes the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to make it." Environmental conservationism (minor aspect)
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I just had an insight. Fascists need to exploit mechanisms which reinforce stratification, which makes them favor competitive games which have preferential attachment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_attachment Social media attention, views, likes, interactions, etc. are network phenomena which obey a preferential attachment: posts range from obscure to viral. It seems that Democracy, connected with social media, creates opportunity for viral bad ideas to be crystallized into institutions (elected office) and policy.
A preferential attachment process is any of a class of processes in which some quantity, typically some form of wealth or credit, is distributed among a number of individuals or objects according to how much they already have, so that those who are already wealthy receive more than those who are not. "Preferential attachment" is only the most r...
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By design. This was utilized in a similar form in conservative think tank studies of the 80's I believe... with the specific intention of finding mechanisms by which they could get people to adopt things that explicitly are against their own self interest. (edited)
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joe hill’s revenge 4/27/2023 12:19 PM
Public Meeting Date: Sunday 4/30 When: 9 AM PST/12 PM EST (noon) Where: Meeting Room voice chat channel Topics: TBA
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knuckles
Some of the core characteristics of fascism: Ultra-conservatism, (socially) traditionalism, ultra-nationalism (especially ethnic nationalism, often to the point of ethnic/racial supremacism). Anti-liberalism, anti-republicanism, anti-democratism, anti-constitutionalism. Authoritarianism or totalitarianism; one-party rule & dictatorship. "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." Social Darwinism (survival of the fittest essentially, stronger nations have a natural right to invade and control weaker nations) (and sometimes eugenics) Collectivism (the nation must be put first, before the individual, communities and families must be put before individuals as well. The whole matters more than the parts) Militarism, revanchism, irredentism, expansionism, imperialism, anti-pacifism "War alone brings up to their highest tension all human energies and imposes the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to make it." Environmental conservationism (minor aspect)
To my mind (my point of view is that of a reformist liberal), fascism is the confluence of the following three characteristics:
  • State primacy (the interests of the state prioritised at every turn)
  • Palingenetic ultranationalism (extreme, often supremacist/irredentist nationalism, coupled with the desire for a “rebirth”)
  • Class collaboration (typically in corporative form)
(edited)
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3:52 AM
None of those three are fascist on their own (the second is far-right and the first two authoritarian; the third spans the spectrum); you have fascism (only) when you combine the three. (edited)
3:58 AM
(From those three characteristics flow the rest; anti-liberalism, anti-communism, totalitarianism, right-wing/syncretic populism, militarism, anti-intellectualism, et cetera) (edited)
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@Senex True
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knuckles
@Senex True
I think the opinion I maintain that everyone here would disagree with is that Nazism and fascism are more different than they’re alike (it’s a mostly academic point, though, so irrelevant; both can, should, and probably will go to hell)
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Hm. Different? Yes. More different than alike? Ehh idk
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Time for me to check if I really do belong here; how radical are all of you (by that, I mean to what extent to you dislike or oppose reformist liberals and their ilk)? EDIT: For context, I’m a “succ” member of r/neoliberal (edited)
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Senex
Time for me to check if I really do belong here; how radical are all of you (by that, I mean to what extent to you dislike or oppose reformist liberals and their ilk)? EDIT: For context, I’m a “succ” member of r/neoliberal (edited)
AvoidOblivion 5/27/2023 3:08 PM
I don’t know enough about reformist liberals and others like them to judge them fairly, so I’ll avoid that. For now, most of what I ask is for people to not support fascists, or authoritarians in any form.
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AvoidOblivion
I don’t know enough about reformist liberals and others like them to judge them fairly, so I’ll avoid that. For now, most of what I ask is for people to not support fascists, or authoritarians in any form.
joe hill’s revenge 5/27/2023 4:35 PM
What they said
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Senex
To my mind (my point of view is that of a reformist liberal), fascism is the confluence of the following three characteristics:
  • State primacy (the interests of the state prioritised at every turn)
  • Palingenetic ultranationalism (extreme, often supremacist/irredentist nationalism, coupled with the desire for a “rebirth”)
  • Class collaboration (typically in corporative form)
(edited)
DevilTheAutopoet 6/2/2023 10:48 AM
I like that you can create a typology with this. SP + PU + CC = Fascism SP + PU - CC = Tankie/ Nazbol SP + CC - PU = Liberalism PU + CC - SP = NRx/ r/Acc SP - PU - CC = Technocracy PU - SP - CC = NAM/"An"Fash CC - SP - PU = Social Democracy -SP - PU - CC = Anti-Authoritarianism (edited)
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Senex
Time for me to check if I really do belong here; how radical are all of you (by that, I mean to what extent to you dislike or oppose reformist liberals and their ilk)? EDIT: For context, I’m a “succ” member of r/neoliberal (edited)
str8 up demon 7/23/2023 1:21 PM
im a insurrectionary anarchist
1:23 PM
theres no other feeling than engaging in anti fascist protests
1:23 PM
the feeling of adrenaline and being surrounded by comrades
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Timezone: UTC-5